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| A great idea for a feature for TW, http://classictw.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11678 |
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| Author: | Molean [ Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:06 pm ] |
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To set up section connections so that there serial Instead of jumping numbers. Like 120 having a warp to 19212. Instead much more ordered..like... _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 _6 _7 _8 _9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 and so on. It would only generate connections between numbers close to each other Like 35 could only have warps of 34 36 24 25 26 44 45 46 That doesn't mean it WILL have those warps just that it can have those warps and only those. To add even more dimension you can have layers separated by letters This would give you the z in x y z coordinates. A b c d e f g h and so on could add height. so 35b would be one lower then 35a. Connections can also be made for one height higher or lower then your location. so 35b could connect to (34 36 24 25 26 44 45 46)a or (34 36 24 25 26 44 45 46)c Also worm holes would be randomly thrown in. worm holes wouldn't be autocharted unless you already know of said worm hole and where it goes. You would go to a sector with a worm hole and it would have that as a warp location you are at 35b warp selection is 34b 45a 34b 26c worm hole (then a designation or a name perhaps to tell one worm hole from another.) Perhaps you will need to do a scan of an area to find a worm hole. You wont spy them just by going past them on a express. Anyways so you would type worm and go through to what ever location. What way it goes would be unknown but a probe could be used to get an idea. Some worm holes would be one way and some both ways. After having gone through you can use that worm hole in future path calculations. Knowledge and control of worm holes could be very strategic and key to victory. |
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| Author: | Boss [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:52 am ] |
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Sounds a little more complicated than its worth to me. The universe already acts similar to this in that you can go through a one way warp and end up a bunch of sectors from where you were. I would rather see the universe expanded in increments by a factor of 5 or 10 thousand additional sectors above 20k up to say 50k or 100k max. That would give the Mega Scripters and Unlimited games more of a life than what they have now. It doesnt take talent to play unlimited games it only takes automated scripts. |
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| Author: | Molean [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:55 am ] |
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bah. As it is now its very confusing where you are. We should make for a more ordered universe before we go about making them even larger. 20k is plenty large when you have no idea where you are. 
Playing by scripts alone is stupid and this would allow for more regular playing as well. |
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| Author: | Boss [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:02 am ] |
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But on the other hand, like the real universe itself, its unpredictable and you dont know where you are there either. If you create order and linearity you will only create predictability and boredom and us that understand the game would rather that not happen. |
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| Author: | Molean [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:35 am ] |
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Real universe star charts would tell you exactly where you are. Knowing where you are does not equal predictability. What reasoning do you use that makes you think it does? Benefits A.Knowing where you are and being able to visualize the area around you. Which would make the game more fun. B.By being able to visualize your area more this allows for more strategic placement of things. It would allow for playing with less scripts. Something this game needs considering how nearly the whole thing seems to be script run now. C.Being able to explore. Currently you cant explore because of how hard it is to keep track of where youve been and where you are. You can aimlessly wander around and hope you you find something and that you dont double track too many times.. Confusion does not equal fun.(chaos can but its not the same thing) D.as part of C. It would make it alot easier to keep track of the ports you have been at. Which means less dependency on scripts. E.Having the strategy of worm hole control and the fun of hunting them out. Draw backs? I don't see any. Do you shorty? If so you'll need to fill this one in. |
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| Author: | Harley Nuss [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:02 am ] |
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quote:Originally posted by Molean Real universe star charts would tell you exactly where you are. Knowing where you are does not equal predictability. What reasoning do you use that makes you think it does? Benefits A.Knowing where you are and being able to visualize the area around you. Which would make the game more fun. B.By being able to visualize your area more this allows for more strategic placement of things. It would allow for playing with less scripts. Something this game needs considering how nearly the whole thing seems to be script run now. C.Being able to explore. Currently you cant explore because of how hard it is to keep track of where youve been and where you are. You can aimlessly wander around and hope you you find something and that you dont double track too many times.. Confusion does not equal fun.(chaos can but its not the same thing) D.as part of C. It would make it alot easier to keep track of the ports you have been at. Which means less dependency on scripts. E.Having the strategy of worm hole control and the fun of hunting them out. Draw backs? I don't see any. Do you shorty? If so you'll need to fill this one in. A. I don't see how this would make it easier to visulize what's around you. You would still have warps from one sector to another, with some randomness. The only difference is that the numbers you have to remember are very similar. B. Refer to A. It's already easily possible to visulize areas that are good for bases without scripts... as they tend to be fairly narrow areas. Scripts would be used just as much in your new way since every universe would still be different. C. It's currently very easy to know where you've been. When you view a sector, it becomes marked as explored. If you press ck you have the option to view all sectors you have explored or unexplored. If you're wanting to know where you haven't been, press cku and work towards one of those sectors. D. Pencil... Paper... If you want to keep track of certain ports, it's pretty easy to use these simple tools. E. The game already supports one-way warps. You go through one way and can't go back. The only thing new you're suggesting is that you won't know where they go the first time through. That sounds somewhat interesting. Drawbacks: The game is much more ordered, greatly reducing the variety of possible sector configurations. This will help those who use data management scripts much more than those who don't. Also, it would involve a fairly large coding change. I don't think the idea has enough merit to dedicate time to it when other, more important updates could be made. Please note, I don't actually have any say in the programming end of it, that's just my personal opinion. |
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| Author: | Molean [ Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:56 pm ] |
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First of all I'd like to thank you for such a well thought out and polite reply. Before I explain how strategic this would make TW... I forgot part of my idea. Space objects. The system would randomly place different shaped and sized space object on the map. This object would replace sectors so that what would normally be turns into that sector would just give the name of the space object. _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 _6 _7 _8 _9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ## ## ## 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 ## ## ## 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 ## 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 ## 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 ## 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 Turns that would normally go to that location would instead give the name of the space object. Like vern nebula(34a) vern nebular(26b) 45a 34b 26c worm hole. Useful for blocking traffic providing protective niches and making for "land" marks(or should i say space marks? [:D] ). With () indicating what sector that space object residues in. Its about knowing your relative location to another location. This gives you a up down left and right. An example of strategy this opens up.. Lets say theres a hostile corp at sectors 34 44 45 54 tucked away in the nebula. warp lanes favorable to them as well. Then Lets say there's a class 0 port that they visit sometimes at sector 11(co) While there's a batch of planets and nice port pairing around sectors 52 and 62(pp)that regenerate there product fast. Theres a worm hole at sector 20(wh)that drops you off at sector 61 next to the pp. Its a two way worm hole but noone knows of it.(you monitored it with limpets to make sure) With the map being more understandable you can know exactly where everything is. Then play strategically. You decide to make your home base at sector 27. Knowing the nebula protects your flank and that the area isnt close to any real thorough fair.(even though sector 27 might have 5 warps in/out of it you know thanks to relative position that its tucked away) So when you want to visit the the class 0 you go up the top flank. When you want to make some credits you go through the wormhole carefully checking to make sure the port pairs aren't being used. This also allows you to make colonist raids on the uncitadeled planets as well. Another advantage is the aggressive corp that residues in the nebula unknowingly protect you from aggressive npc and players that otherwise might find where you are(because the rest of the map is to the left the right side where the worm hole is. Is the end of the map) Plus when you feel strong and brave enough this setup will make for a nice surprise attack on said aggressive corp _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 _6 _7 _8 _9 10 c0)12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19(wh) 21 22 23 ## ## ##( Y)28 29 30 31 32 33|34 ## ## ## 38 39 40 41 42 43|44 45 ## 47 48 49 50 51(pp)53|54 ## 56 57 58 59 60 61(pp)63 ## 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 What I suggest gives you a relative position to everything else on the map. Something not present/usable with the current tangled spiderweb design. Harley the worm holes wouldn't be for one way warps because many would be two ways anyways(50/50 would make sense). And plenty of regular sector warps would randomly be one way. Worm holes would be for traveling great distances with few warps. With the current random connection method every warp is both a wormhole and not. Having relative position like the way i suggest would make wormholes actually wormholes and the fact that there secret and unusable if you don't know about them plus guardable makes for alot of strategy. |
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| Author: | Boss [ Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:19 pm ] |
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Harley pretty much said what I had to say but I understand what your trying to say. I still think it would be too much work to do this. I do like the wormhole idea tho, with an option to make them stable or unstable would be nice or a percentage of each. Maybe the stable ones have definate destinations that never change and the unstable ones may have a stable entrance but exit at a random sector. Now that would be interresting. |
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| Author: | Harley Nuss [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:01 am ] |
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There are parts of the idea that are interesting, the worm holes for example that can't be plotted until you visually see them. I just don't see the complete restructuring of the universe as really making it any more ordered. Part of the reason sectors are hodge-podged together is to keep the universe close together. With your daisy chain type arrangement, it would be a really long way from sector 1 to sector 20000. It would spread the game out to such an extent that you would need thousands of turns just to begin to traverse the universe. Quite frankly, I wouldn't get your hopes up of having the universe creation re-ordered in the way you're describing. It would be a major change to a system that most players are familiar with and like. |
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| Author: | Molean [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:03 am ] |
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The point isnt exactly to make the universe more ordered the point is to know where you are relative to everything else. Yes it would make space bigger. [^] Which is a good thing. Space is large. As a bonus bigger would make less sectors seem like more. This is the point of worm holes. They allow you to go a large distance fast. Making them a valuable resource to control. Don't forget about transwarp. This isn't either or. Just a option to check when you bang. I think once a few games are played with the system im suggesting people could see how much strategy it would add and more would do it. P.S. You couldnt plot a course with a worm hole till you've actually gone through that worm hole. Not just having seen it. Using probs to learn where it goes would help here to reduce risk. |
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| Author: | Molean [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:11 am ] |
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Would it really be hard to program? Couldn't you just set up some rules for the bang? For example. While banging a 100 by 100 universe it would be limited to connecting sectors that are plus or minus 1,99,100, and 101 of each other. For height there would be a second number value and the bang would be limited to connecting plus or minus 1 of that value. |
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| Author: | severian [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:28 pm ] |
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Well, hmm.. Most of what can be said has been. Just want to add some stuff. BTW, ideas DRIVE tradewars, so keep 'em comming. The one ways, as used above to compare to wormholes seem at first thought to fit the bill. HOWEVER, perhaps what Molean had in mind was a wormhole transport to another game. That would be interesting. Enter the wormhole and end up in another quadrant right? What ever would be easier would fit this bill, a wormhole to another game (say, same server) or to a micro universe within the game. |
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| Author: | Boss [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:48 pm ] |
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Now there is an interresting suggestion, you could have say 4 games running on a server and when you bang them you could designate at that time if there are intergame wormholes or not and to which other game/games they connect to. Could be interresting, effectively making the universe as big as you want it to be with other games. Could make for a fight over wormhole access and defense also to maintain control of who uses it. It would definately be a new dimension to the game. |
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| Author: | Rand [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:44 pm ] |
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I like the intergame wormhole Idea. Imagine if the sysop could setup which games the worm holes go to. Enter wormhole in game 1 end up in game 2, enter wormhole in game to end up in game 3. To win you have to control all four game  . Could make for some interesting games.
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| Author: | Molean [ Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:15 pm ] |
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Well first the idea of intergame wormholes sounds fun. Though a problem occurs of the different games are running by different rules. Like one being 500 turn base and one 2000. Second no thats not what i'm suggesting. Harley brought up the reason behind worm holes. my suggestion would make the universe large. Not thousands of turns to travel large like he said but still larger. Worm holes would be the way to travel between one part of the universe and another much faster then normal Something to find covet and control to to gain power and profit. (NOT between games. thats a seperate idea) I'm not sure how you misread me there severian. Could only imagine that you didnt read the whole of my posts because of there length. Anyways back to my idea. Have i convinced anyone yet that this could be a practical(not too hard to implement?) and fun option of a way to bang a universe? |
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