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 Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports 
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
My private movehelper has (or will have, I don't remember where I left off with it) a way to find sdt pairs and triplets based on MCIC. I should also dust that off and finish the latest version. no time, no time, no time...

I'll just say if you are playing a turns game and you aren't using EP's haggle, then you are going to lose to the corp that is using it. heh

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Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:13 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Traitor wrote:
I should also dust that off and finish the latest version. no time, no time, no time...

lol
Yeah you should!! Pls remember its good to share ;) heh

Traitor wrote:
I'll just say if you are playing a turns game and you aren't using EP's haggle, then you are going to lose to the corp that is using it. heh

I've just setup EP's latest version of haggle. I've used it before but had an issue with it. It's that long ago i can't remember what it was. Prolly conflicting with another script maybe... I really dunno why i reverted back to twx haggle. I don't use swath so it cant have been that.

Another thought.....
It seems to be the blue players who upgrade the ports but i usually get the red with the lowest exp to do it.
Thought behind that is the port *needs* to be upgraded.
Lowest red prolly needs an exp boost.
Blue needs to keep exp low to stay fed safe and ali low to save the reds exp at extern. (every little helps)
Thoughts anyone??

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:14 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
the upgrading of ports depends on IF the red needs exp.
I was told once b4 TOO HIGH of xp causes a bust faster, I've never expermited with this.
Zoc and Mombot both have the option to upgrade port with noexp.
NOTE: The following is only in a MBBS game...check V screen or *screen at Play Trade Wars screen.

If it is after tern and ur red has no xp, he can either upgrade a port or do a Megarob.
NOTE: watch his align, if too low he can flip blue.
another thing I've noticed b4 concerning Mega... the lower ur xp the more it cost u to buy a port down so ur red can Mega Rob it... so as an example, if u have someone with the turns, but has a high xp for whatever reason killing or what ever, he won't spend the same amount buying the port down. Depending on the port, he might not spend "enough" for the mega rob, which really sucks...
Get with me in the Val. game, and if we can get Final at keys, we can play with team SDT, will have to find a MBBS game to teach u about Mega.

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:35 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Zarkahn wrote:
another thing I've noticed b4 concerning Mega... the lower ur xp the more it cost u to buy a port down so ur red can Mega Rob it... so as an example, if u have someone with the turns, but has a high xp for whatever reason killing or what ever, he won't spend the same amount buying the port down. Depending on the port, he might not spend "enough" for the mega rob, which really sucks...
Get with me in the Val. game, and if we can get Final at keys, we can play with team SDT, will have to find a MBBS game to teach u about Mega.


The magic Exp number is 1,000. As I remember reading on Cabal's pages.. a port will essentially give a player with less than 1k Exp the absolute Worst price. Which is essential when the product max is only 32k.

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:59 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
You can only mega in an MBBS game, and the MBBS default is 32k. However with some ports you can have high exp and still do a mega, you just have to make sure you're using the right ports... or at the very least, buying another product (like ore) in the process.

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:01 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Zarkahn wrote:
I was told once b4 TOO HIGH of xp causes a bust faster, I've never experimented with this.

I agree, it seems to have a certain bandwidth where reds usually stay between depending on steal factor of the game.
Zarkahn wrote:
Zoc and Mombot both have the option to upgrade port with noexp.

Ive used the Zoc upgrade port a few times, (i try not play blue when possible) But after xtern runs and the reds lose exp its gotta be cheaper to get the red to upgrade ports than blue player to upgrade ports and *then* the red to bust planets.

Zarkahn wrote:
If it is after tern and ur red has no xp, he can either upgrade a port or do a Megarob.
NOTE: watch his align, if too low he can flip blue.

I've never ever mega robbed yet... I look fwd to it tho lol
Whats the exp gain??

Zarkahn wrote:
another thing I've noticed b4 concerning Mega... the lower ur xp the more it cost u to buy a port down so ur red can Mega Rob it... so as an example, if u have someone with the turns, but has a high xp for whatever reason killing or what ever, he won't spend the same amount buying the port down. Depending on the port, he might not spend "enough" for the mega rob, which really sucks...

So under 1000 exp has more uses than just being fed safe. I didnt know that before.
Cheers for that.

Zarkahn wrote:
Get with me in the Val. game, and if we can get Final at keys, we can play with team SDT, will have to find a MBBS game to teach u about Mega.

Yeah, that would be good.
I've had a "play" with Ram's TeamSDT in MTW MOO2 (with dupes) so i know the set up etc...
I'm still AMAZED at the 60-80 million (a day) difference between 2 good mcic ports and 2 bad ones.
Prolly more than 80 mil... cus (i think) the day i found the -59 and -65 ports and ran TSDT reds had low turns (couldnt wait to try lol) and ports not fully upgraded .
It was noticeably different tho...

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:26 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Singularity wrote:
You can only mega in an MBBS game, and the MBBS default is 32k. However with some ports you can have high exp and still do a mega, you just have to make sure you're using the right ports... or at the very least, buying another product (like ore) in the process.


Interesting.. any chance of u explaining further?
Buying ore?? how and why does that make a difference??
Many thanx in advance

NjoY

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:32 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
well this should prolly be a new thread on Mega Rob...
First of all as stated b4, has to be a MBBS game....
Mega Rob requires someone to spend 3.3 mil credits... buying something
if u can't spend that much on just eqp... u wnat a port that sells fuel as well as eqp...
buy eqp at worst, and fuel at worst... Planet needs more fuel anyway...
teh Mega rob allows a red to rob back all the credits... well not sure on limit there...
might need 2 reds depending on what u spend buying it down, or rob one and rob another, and come back...
Many ways it works, but the exp level I hadn't played with much b4, but noticed it in a game using a bot...one day he spent plenty, next day he couldn't spend enough... even with Fuel added on at worst...
the Ideal port for mega sells Fuel and Eqp... u get all cash spent back, fuel planet, and have eqp to sell off...
then again this requires the ports and a level 4 planet...

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:47 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Zarkahn wrote:
well this should prolly be a new thread on Mega Rob...

That maybe a good idea... ive got a few questions hehe
Maybe a mod could/will split this thread if necessary...

What exp do u need to rob back 3.3+million creds??

Does the "rob_factor" make any difference??

When i run oz's planet trade script "mega rob" is an option... i think it needs someone running st_bot at the same time... (both available in MD_script_pack on grimey's) What scripts do you all use for mega rob??

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Zarkahn wrote:
if u can't spend that much on just eqp... u wnat a port that sells fuel as well as eqp...
buy eqp at worst, and fuel at worst... Planet needs more fuel anyway...

Person with less than 1k Exp will always spend more using Worst-Price, than anyone else above 1k Exp.
Zarkahn wrote:
teh Mega rob allows a red to rob back all the credits... well not sure on limit there...

might need 2 reds depending on what u spend buying it down, or rob one and rob another, and come back...

Max is roughly 5.7mil. you always get 11% more than you spend. If you MEGA and there's still 2.9mil left on the port, you can do a second mega-rob (after 'off' robbing)
Zarkahn wrote:

Many ways it works, but the exp level I hadn't played with much b4, but noticed it in a game using a bot...one day he spent plenty, next day he couldn't spend enough... even with Fuel added on at worst...
the Ideal port for mega sells Fuel and Eqp... u get all cash spent back, fuel planet, and have eqp to sell off...
then again this requires the ports and a level 4 planet...


cant' say it enough Experience counts. if no one on your corp can buydown at worst price, that has less than 1,000EXp, and cannot spend the 3.3mil, you're gonna need to buy down Fuel-Ore, and possibly Organics. Worst case senerio: you will have to go back several hours later to complete the buydown. tha always sucks.. hehe

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:09 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
max megarob is 6599999 credits in one go.

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:20 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
If you have more experience than is needed to do the steal/rob, then it doesn't matter if you have 10 more xp, or 1,000,000 more xp. your odds of busting are the same, roughly 1 in 50. I've done this thousands of times. I've written test scripts that run 10,000 robs and keep my xp at 5000, 50000, 100000, 500000, 1000000, and 4.5 mil and it's always 1 in 50. I know, I know, even I had a day once where I burned 2500 SDT turns totally bust free. But I've had other days where I'm busting every 50 turns. It's 1 in 50. The larger your sample size, the closer to 1 in 50 it gets.

There is some 'looseness' when you are trying to rob/steal at or near the max your exp allows. When in doubt about what you can rob/steal, just go for a bit less. The 1% you don't steal is nothing compared to the loss if you try to take too much. In the games I usually play in, this isn't even a factor after the first day, so I've never bothered to do much experimentation on it. I just play better safe than sorry.

That being said, I HAVE seen some odd things. Like when running 2 person team sdt, and both of you busting in a particular colt 2 out of 3 times, rather than the expected 1 in 3. Even when you change ports. Haven't found a pattern to it yet. When I try to apply the scientific method to it, it goes back to 1 in 3. But when I'm actually PLAYING, it's always the same Darn colt that I bust in all day. The next day it's a different colt. :roll:

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:46 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Quote:
cant' say it enough Experience counts. if no one on your corp can buydown at worst price, that has less than 1,000EXp, and cannot spend the 3.3mil, you're gonna need to buy down Fuel-Ore, and possibly Organics. Worst case senerio: you will have to go back several hours later to complete the buydown. tha always sucks.. hehe


But that's rarely a problem, even with high experience. As long as you choose good ports ahead of time. Before upgrading a port for megarob you need to check what it's selling eq for. If it's 60 credits per unit or higher, you won't have this problem. Between 55 and 60 you can sometimes get away with it, and below 55 is a waste of time.

It's a waste of turns to have to buy more than eq, but sometimes it's not a complete waste to buy ore since you'll probably need ore at some point anyway. Buying org is a complete waste of turns since those are turns you could use for eq at another port.

Quote:
Max is roughly 5.7mil. you always get 11% more than you spend. If you MEGA and there's still 2.9mil left on the port, you can do a second mega-rob (after 'off' robbing)


As phead said, max is 6.5m. You need 3.2m to be able to mega a second time. Let your script do the math for you, it's easy to make mistakes.

Quote:
So under 1000 exp has more uses than just being fed safe. I didnt know that before.
Cheers for that.


Well the math is a bit different... First, it's not "below 1000" and "above 1000" but instead it's gradual. Above 1000 the rate of change declines dramatically, but there is still a little bit. Basically for 1000 and under it's...

Buy adjust factor = (Experience / 100)
Sell adjust factor = (Experience / 100) - 1

When you buy product, your experience helps you get it cheaper so subtract the buying factor. When you sell product you get better results, so add it. But none of this effects ptrades at all, ptrades are not given a bonus for experience so if you're negotiating off product in bulk it makes no sense to raise your experience. So yes this only matters on ship trades (like a buydown).

So someone with 1000 experience will have a 10 credit adjustment applied. Take that in account when looking at initial port values and you can easily pick good ports that you won't get stuck on. Just be wary of stolen ports, as you grid around it's easy to pick up crappy ports that don't meet your needs (ppl upgrade a lot of trash, lol).

But also keep in mind that price is more than mcic and experience, it's also the % on the port, a day factor and a random factor. On some days (ever see "hump day special" ??) you'll get better deals than others, so some days may require more work than others... if you've got a port that's borderline and the day sells stuff cheaply, you might need to buy ore or come back after you've worked on the other ports.

The inverse is true of ports with a low %, so you'll end up spending more on the last leg of the buydown than the first... meaning that it's more turn economical to port surf around 0% while waiting for regen. If you go off and forget about the port for a few hours and come back to a 10% port... you might end up burning a few turns to finish the mega.

Quote:
I've never ever mega robbed yet... I look fwd to it tho lol
Whats the exp gain??


Experience gain = credits robbed / 2000
Alignment loss = credits robbed / 1000

So if you rob 3.3m, or 3300000... that's 1650 experience, 3300 alignment.

Quote:
Yeah, that would be good.
I've had a "play" with Ram's TeamSDT in MTW MOO2 (with dupes) so i know the set up etc...
I'm still AMAZED at the 60-80 million (a day) difference between 2 good mcic ports and 2 bad ones.
Prolly more than 80 mil... cus (i think) the day i found the -59 and -65 ports and ran TSDT reds had low turns (couldnt wait to try lol) and ports not fully upgraded .
It was noticeably different tho...


Yes it makes a big credits per turn difference. If you want to know exactly how much, take a look at ck's haggle lessons at...

http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/strategy/hagglelessons.html

The max price per unit is 139.3 at -65 and 106.3 at -20. So with 255 holds...

-65: 35521 creds
-20: 27106 creds

So lets say you've got 2 ppl running 1000 turns and SDT (ship nego isn't quite this straight-forward, lol). Steal, dump, transport, that's 2 turns per loop. And lets say every 10 loops it negs off 2550. So that's 21 turns per 10 loops. 2000 turns available, that's 95 negs.

95 negs * 2550 units per neg = 242250 units total.
242250 * 139.3 = 33,745,425 cr
242250 * 106.3 = 25,751,175 cr

That's a difference of just under 8m creds by choosing 3 good ports instead of 3 crappy ones, and that's around a 1000 turn run. If you had more turns, obviously it'd be even more money.

Quote:
Ive used the Zoc upgrade port a few times, (i try not play blue when possible) But after xtern runs and the reds lose exp its gotta be cheaper to get the red to upgrade ports than blue player to upgrade ports and *then* the red to bust planets.


Depends on if you need the experience. You don't need experience for megarobs, so a blue should be upgrading those ports... probably using a no-exp upgrade in order to remain fedsafe. If your reds need the experience tho, for instance to SDT, then by all means have them do the upgrades since that's money put to dual use (why bust up planets if you don't need to).

In general it's a better idea to balance your alignment when using SDT/SST, never let your blues get too far beyond +1000 alignment. If they get too far ahead of that they need to either attack figs or just CBY right before extern (assuming no death lim). If you're busting up after every extern you'll be burning a lot of cash and turns... big waste.

Quote:
That being said, I HAVE seen some odd things. Like when running 2 person team sdt, and both of you busting in a particular colt 2 out of 3 times, rather than the expected 1 in 3. Even when you change ports. Haven't found a pattern to it yet. When I try to apply the scientific method to it, it goes back to 1 in 3. But when I'm actually PLAYING, it's always the same Darn colt that I bust in all day. The next day it's a different colt.


There seems to be some connection between MCIC and bust rates. And yea, some ports just seem "jinxed." I suspect there's some kind of hidden "bust factor" assigned to ports.

The "partial holds" problem, where you have too little exp for the holds you have, comes with some rounding error. That's why a lot of ppl just bump up their steal factor a little higher. If the SF is 21 and we're using 23, we'll bust less often... and altho we'll steal a little less too, the gain in the turns, higher rise in experience and cost of furbs easily makes up for it.

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Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:23 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Quote:
There seems to be some connection between MCIC and bust rates. And yea, some ports just seem "jinxed." I suspect there's some kind of hidden "bust factor" assigned to ports.


Yeah, there may be something to that. I know the long term bust rate is 1 in 50, but there may be some short term things that can be done to lower the odds. Roberts reminded me recently that just before The Cabal stopped playing, we had some moderate success in reducing our bust rates by moving away from the jinxed port or switching out the jinxed colt. But it was all hearsay and superstitious theory, not solid and reproducible scientific method fact. Was probably all in our heads, but it sure made us reds feel better. :mrgreen:

Oh, and for the OP,
http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/strategy/twxscripthelp.html
Read that for these:
http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/scripts/twx2 ... ary_SDT.ts
http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/scripts/twx2 ... ary_SDT.ts
http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/scripts/twx2 ... ber_SDT.ts
I wrote those in '02 and made them public in '03. They are quite primitive by today's standards, but it's open source 2 person team sdt scripts, and it's well documented. Many scripters got their start looking over those scripts. Back when nobody else had them, they were very, very cool.

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:30 pm
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Unread post Re: Team SDT - 1 Blue 2 Red - 3 Ports
Many thanx Traitor....

Dont know if i should have mentioned this before...
I'm now running 1 Blue 3 Red 2 Ports and Rams TSDT.
I have an issue... lol...

I keep getting "R Red2 TSDT Error: This port cannot be upgraded enough to continue - Halting."
The port is upgraded to max so obviously cant be upgraded more.
How can i get round that problem??

Cheers guys.

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:55 pm
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