View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu May 25, 2017 1:20 pm



Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
 figs def or off. 
Author Message
Chief Warrant Officer

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
Unread post figs def or off.
thought i read somewhere that offence figs attack at 1.25 : 1
is that true (memory problem ;)
seems everyone prefers def. figs in a grid.
would not the offence odds of the ship attacking the fig play into the formula?
ie: privateer rolls into sector - hits sector fig - attacks with the 5:1 odds.
ie: privateer rolls into sector - is attacked by sector fig - privy defends at 2:1 odds.
am i on track here?
(maybe i am thinking of military reaction off planet - figs attack at 1.25 : 1)
straighten me out, my current ceo demands def figs.
i prefer off. figs
????
cc bee... out


Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:10 pm
Profile
Commander
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 3:00 am
Posts: 1093
Location: Tucson, AZ
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
When you enter a sector that contains offensive fighters, they don't necessarily all attack. The maximum number that attack is based on the number of fighters and shields you have. The formula and the odds are such If there are enough fighters for a maximum attack, then a ship with 1.3:1 or better combat odds will survive, and a ship with 1.2:1 or worse combat odds will be destroyed. (A ship that survives the fighter attack might still be destroyed by something else.)

_________________
Suddenly you're Busted!


Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:56 pm
Profile WWW
Chief Warrant Officer

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
thanks mongoose
sounds like offence figs in a grid might be better.
certainly with ships like the Sub Zero "Boat of Humility" that has high offence odds of 4.1:1 and a weak defence odds of 1.?:1.
i did do some research on the cabal doc. and off. and def. sector figs are equal 1:1 odds (mbbs).
Now to take it a bit further:
what are the game benefits? Defence figs are passive and can be retreated from. When retreating from def. sector figs... will photons self detonate? Most certainly off. sector figs will detonated a ships photon. Are there other benefits to be experienced? Perhaps it is dependent upon the situation/game edit. Read somewhere years ago,that off. sector figs will eventually erode alignment, is that true.
Stretch the explanation a bit, are there benefits other than mongoose's correct explanation?


Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:47 am
Profile
Gameop
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:00 am
Posts: 1044
Location: USA
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
cc bee wrote:
thought i read somewhere that offence figs attack at 1.25 : 1
is that true (memory problem ;)


1:1 for sector, less ship attack odds (e.g. 5:1 subzero edit will destroy around 5 figs for every 1). However since it's offensive it's still 1:1 less the randomness associated with offensive attacks.

cc bee wrote:
seems everyone prefers def. figs in a grid.
would not the offence odds of the ship attacking the fig play into the formula?


I personally prefer offensive because of the potential to set off torps /SD pods and Lowbies without taking a align hit (vs. Defense which has the opportunity to hang a ship/pod).

Offensive sector figs vs. defensive ship tends to be kinda rough. (e.g. 1:5 xyz ship rolls in it takes up to 5 offensive figs to reduce 1 ship fig) which is why high offensive ships using gridders that don't holo are fun to mess with.

cc bee wrote:
(maybe i am thinking of military reaction off planet - figs attack at 1.25 : 1)
straighten me out, my current ceo demands def figs.
i prefer off. figs
????
cc bee... out


Your viewing from a ship perspective vs. the sector perspective which is always true 1:1 odds before multipliers and entropy. Traditionally IMHO it helps to think of everything within the game as having a stack or activities that happen in a certain sequence (less so with V2).

When entering a sector there is a specific set of activities that happen prior to you actually being moved to that sector by the game server.

For example:
You initially enter a sector, Mines explode, Debris % avoidance roll happens, Offensive Figs attack, Planetary Cannon fires, Defensive Fig prompt occurs, If your still alive you finish entering the sector. (or something to this extent, I've havn't played in years)

This finite detail in the sequence is why some of the old school players who scripted continued to play after development ceased. Writing scripts around this sequence to assist with movement, offense and defense offered complexity to a otherwise non-complex game. (e.g. timing a response to occur after one event but before another.)

Disclaimer: Version 2 removed allot of this, but still keeps the odds stuff

cc bee wrote:
When retreating from def. sector figs... will photons self detonate?


Not unless the ship retreats into offensive figs or a debris/mines

cc bee wrote:
Most certainly off. sector figs will detonated a ships photon.


sometimes - it is not a guarantee, space debris is much more efficient at causing a detonation that offensive figs are.

cc bee wrote:
Are there other benefits to be experienced? Perhaps it is dependent upon the situation/game edit. Read somewhere years ago,that off. sector figs will eventually erode alignment, is that true.


Alignment is only a factor when the figs are defensive, if memory servers the TWCabal has the exact numbers but it's like x% for every 1k figs.

cc bee wrote:
Stretch the explanation a bit, are there benefits other than mongoose's correct explanation?


Alien corralling, stupid alignment tricks and pdrop/ptorp notification in older versions of TW-2002 software (e.g. V1 vs V2)

Preventing Aliens from leaving ferrangal by overwhelming their ability to move safely with sector figs. (disclaimer:doesn't always work)

Laying defensive figs around stardock with the express intent to swing a players alignment. (e.g. Delaying/Preventing a corp from fielding a red player)

Notification used to occur early in the event stack, unfortunately with the common timing in V2 that is no longer the case.

_________________
Dark Dominion TWGS
Telnet://twgs.darkworlds.org:23
ICQ#31380757, -=English 101 pwns me=-
"This one claims to have been playing since 1993 and didn't know upgrading a port would raise his alignment."


Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:15 pm
Profile ICQ
Chief Warrant Officer

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
well done kaus.
you might not be playing lately, but your not forgotten.
a thought occurs to me:
when running a ptorp script and a trader hits your sector fig... is there any difference in milli-seconds of response between off. or def. sector figs.
does the ptorp script have a more likely chance of delivery with def. or off. figs.
guess what i mean is what do the scripts look for... X trader enters sector, or X trader destroys fig in sector...
do def. figs allow better script reaction?


Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:03 pm
Profile
Commander

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:00 am
Posts: 1703
Location: Guam USA
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
I think if your trying to get a jump on adj photoning , regardless of the fig type , lay limps , they connect before the def. fig. reports.

I have not tested to see if its before an off. fig hit tho , but expect it would.

Vid

_________________
TWGS V2 Vids World on Guam Port 2002
Telnet://202.151.82.243:2002
Team Speak3 Servers for TradeWars @
Zoom's Team Speak Server
ts3server://vs26.tserverhq.com:7214 This is where I'm at.
Micro's Team Speak Server
ts3server://ts.microblaster.net
Archys Portal Teamspeak Server
ts3server://60.242.57.40

Founding Member -=[Team Kraaken]=- Ka Pla
Image

Image
Image


Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:48 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Gameop
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:00 am
Posts: 1044
Location: USA
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
cc bee wrote:
when running a ptorp script and a trader hits your sector fig... is there any difference in milli-seconds of response between off. or def. sector figs.


If memory serves it was marginal in that you could not create a script to specifically target off that difference.

However scripts can get pretty complex in terms of timings so if you utilized it with some other "logic" it could add up. Think predictive torping where you have a sequence of movements that follow, the 10ms or whatever difference it was adds a small advantage.

In Version 1 that advantage is what separated a great private script from your run of the mill single purpose script. And what I dislike about V2 which removed that complexity by processing all timings at once then adding a delay vs. a stack or order of events.

cc bee wrote:
does the ptorp script have a more likely chance of delivery with def. or off. figs.
guess what i mean is what do the scripts look for... X trader enters sector, or X trader destroys fig in sector...
do def. figs allow better script reaction?


No in that context it isn't.

///Theory craft (assumes V1)///
It's macro vs. Micro timings, you will notice that sometimes you hit and sometimes you don't with torps and that this difference seems exaggerated on V1. The reality is that the core issue is your opponents move macro vs. your attack macro + latency.

A good opponent will not only abort displays but add command aborts to a macro (covered at dynarris website). The difference between the three forms of macros is significant but largely depends on the string of commands behind it and server CPC size in V1.

Envision three macros assuming no safety issues etc, just a GTFO of here macro.
Code:
1) M*1234*yy
#150ms

2) M  *  1234  *  y  y
#100ms

3)M z * z 1234 z * z yy
#50ms

###Disclaimer
Understand that any numbers and strings above are Bullcrap and just for purposes of illustrating the principle.


There are (2) factors in combat timingthat matter to someone developing a script to work within the confines of the game.

1) CPC - Command per cycle (where 1 server cycle would process x player commands)
2) Latency - What your native ping to the server is (we all know this one)

Utilizing my Bullcrap above you and consider that an opponent utilizing macro #1 vs. #3 you could stand to gain a 100ms advantage.

Consider that the very best non-local (terminal) player is going to ping to a server at 100-150ms then add the above "latency" to these numbers. While you sit adjacent with your ADJ_TORP_LOL_SCRIPT.ts running. I think the direction I'm taking you is pretty self evident, but in case it's not.

You both have the same latency your torp would land because:

1) Your command stack is shorter and likely under 1 CPC
2) Your command string structure is shorter regardless if you abort
3) Most torpers abort display so given the above you sit at 150ms vs. your opponent whom sits at 250ms. (100 diff)

A 75ms difference is usually enough to get you, 100ms is pretty much a guarantee.

Hope that helps.

//edited for clarity

_________________
Dark Dominion TWGS
Telnet://twgs.darkworlds.org:23
ICQ#31380757, -=English 101 pwns me=-
"This one claims to have been playing since 1993 and didn't know upgrading a port would raise his alignment."


Last edited by Kaus on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:03 am, edited 4 times in total.



Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:45 pm
Profile ICQ
Chief Warrant Officer

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
oh yes
oh yes
i get it and have read dny's macro tutorial.
figured number of commands was the issue.
and aborts.
very cool explanation... and urge others to read your article.
thanks again kaus


Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:14 pm
Profile
Gameop
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:00 am
Posts: 1044
Location: USA
Unread post Re: figs def or off.
cc bee wrote:
oh yes
oh yes
i get it and have read dny's macro tutorial.
figured number of commands was the issue.
and aborts.
very cool explanation... and urge others to read your article.
thanks again kaus


No Problem, it is scenarios like the above that kept Singularity and I busy for a few months figuring out the timings of V1 and what makes it tick. It's to bad JP never bothered to consider our data or suggestions.

Most of the scripts I've really enjoyed started as a problem statement.

Lonestars FU-Kaus gridder v1 is destroying my grid, how do I counter it?
---Assuming he uses best case macro, how do I reduce my timings to give a small advantage and stop him.
a) use a shorter macro/prompt (is this possible)
b) beg and plead for my life
c) grid him back

I usually choose C, timings is a limited bucket of tricks.

_________________
Dark Dominion TWGS
Telnet://twgs.darkworlds.org:23
ICQ#31380757, -=English 101 pwns me=-
"This one claims to have been playing since 1993 and didn't know upgrading a port would raise his alignment."


Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:28 pm
Profile ICQ
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 9 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.