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Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars
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Author:  Archy [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I am wondering how the majority of players feel about scripts and automation in Tradewars.
It is my understanding that the use of scripts has evolved over many years. But there seems to be a feeling that they dont belong or are unwelcome.
In my view the game has evolved as it has for a reason. The old ways were left behind because they got old. But that as i said is just my view. So I wonder what your view is...

Author:  T0yman [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

The ones that left due to scripts or bots were looking for an excuse to leave.

Author:  traveller [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

The game will die with out them

Author:  traveller [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

If peeps wanted to play without scripts I'm sure ALL sysop's would put a game or game's up for them

Author:  John Pritchett [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I'm sorry, but this is just an unnecessary question, Archy. Why so adversarial? Is anyone suggesting that it's non-scripting or nothing? No. You guys are the ones who seem to be saying that it's scripting or nothing. Why not support both? If there was any willingness among scripting players to keep their advanced tactics out of games where they're not wanted, I wouldn't need to be so aggressive in trying to protect those in the majority who feel that advanced scripting has broken this game.

I have bent over backwards to continue to support your style of play, putting a great deal of time into making options when it would be easier to simply change the game without adding editor options to support those optional changes. If this attitude of "it's them or us" continues, I'm afraid I will have to side with "them", because I'm simply more interested in TradeWars as it WAS than TradeWars as it IS.

That said, Archy, I think you need to think seriously about what kinds of scripts I'm trying to limit. I'm not saying NO SCRIPTS, I'm saying let's see if we can limit certain kinds of scripts in certain games. Player hunting scripts, bots, scripts that completely lock up a game, these kinds of tactics are great in games where like-minded people are playing them, but you're never going to have more than a handful of people playing those games. Those kinds of games just don't appeal to 99% of gamers. It's a fact. It's nothing personal. It's your niche. Enjoy it. TW is for you. But that doesn't mean it can't be for others as well, does it?

Let's just put aside this unnecessary debate over "scripts or no scripts" and who's way is the right way. People should be able to play this game however they want to play it. You don't want people telling you how to play, so please, all of you in here, don't tell people how they should play.

Author:  Promethius [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I agree on a debate not being necessary, but from an sysOp point of view I would like to know how people feel. Are people interested in non-script games?

This site might not be the best place to get an opinion against scripts, just as I think the Facebook page is one where people are against them. I think the Facebook posters are the casual players (may be a player - may be someone who remembers the game and will never play, but has an opinion all the same) and prefers manual play to burn up their 250 turns.

I prefer scripts, dislike bots. The game types will be decided by the players if they can figure out the game settings.

Author:  Archy [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

i asked this question because i see you making a lot of effort to stop scripts from being used. When you make ZTMs impossible, you break scripts. You specifically mention bots when you talk about stopping certain scripts.. a bot simply allows players to control each other when a corpy is not at keys, and in the case of my bot (which i have made public as you know) it is a front-end meant to make the mundane chores necessary in the game easier.
You say you are more interested in the game as it was, but to my knowledge you dont play this game.. and you are the one with the ultimatum, my question was simply that, a question.
Your statement..
Quote:
"If this attitude of "it's them or us" continues, I'm afraid I will have to side with "them", because I'm simply more interested in TradeWars as it WAS than TradeWars as it IS."

seems adversarial to me. I was trying to find out if there really is so many people who dont want scripts.. and i would have accepted the answer either way..

Im sorry but i am feeling a little left out in the cold here.. and i dont say this to be adversarial.. or to promote an argument. i have kept my eye on the progress of the changes and the proposed changes in the forums here and in general i have stayed out of it.. because i do NOT like to argue, i do NOT like to be adversarial.. but they are a worry to me.. not only to me, but also to the people i talk to about it.. I am not the only one concerned with the changes you are making. I worry that a few loud voices have made the majority look like the minority.

I certainly dont go around forcing my style of play on anyone.. i play mostly on my own server.. but less and less these days..

I have had nothing but respect for you JP.. and i am not a troublemaker either here or in game. I would have hoped that you would give my concerns a little more credence than that.

Author:  Oso [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I hate comparing apples to oranges, but here goes:

We all love Ice Cream. Some of us love Vanilla, some of us love Chocolate.
Instead of declaring death to the Chocoholics, we should focus on our mutual love for Ice Cream. Some of us even like our Vanilla with chocolate chips...

We are all here because we love TW. We might not all like the same aspects of the game, but we all love the game as a whole. If you find that you have a following for a no-scripting or helper game, then go for it. But the way you approached this put it forward as an us vs. them. Instead, you could have asked the question- "Do you think your abilities are good enough to attempt to play without a helper or scripts?". That would give you an opportunity to see who would be willing to give it a try without having an argument.

I hope this helps. This is an awesome game with awesome people who still play it. We should focus on our similarities rather than our differences.

Author:  EleqTriziT [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

Archy wrote:
I am wondering how the majority of players feel about scripts and automation in Tradewars.
It is my understanding that the use of scripts has evolved over many years. But there seems to be a feeling that they dont belong or are unwelcome.
In my view the game has evolved as it has for a reason. The old ways were left behind because they got old. But that as i said is just my view. So I wonder what your view is...


It is important to note that not all evolution is good. It seems the creature that is TradeWars has become incapable of giving birth to new players. New players used to complain about the much more primitive scripts a decade ago! It also seems to have become incapable of caring for her returning players for the same reasons.

When I played, and if I ever play again, I will some automation. Really, I'm not going to PPT by hand, F that. I used to write my own scripts in Telemate and ZOC. But the evolution of the automation has gone much farther than when I last played.

You can blame the new players, the old players, JP etc but any game has to be able to not only keep it's current players, but gain new ones. There has to be a balance and that's all JP is trying to do. So relax, he's not going to do anything that will eliminate the types of games you like to play. He's just adding other types for other people.

Nothing wrong with that.

Author:  Helix [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

Oso wrote:
I hate comparing apples to oranges, but here goes:

We all love Ice Cream. Some of us love Vanilla, some of us love Chocolate.
Instead of declaring death to the Chocoholics, we should focus on our mutual love for Ice Cream. Some of us even like our Vanilla with chocolate chips...

We are all here because we love TW. We might not all like the same aspects of the game, but we all love the game as a whole. If you find that you have a following for a no-scripting or helper game, then go for it. But the way you approached this put it forward as an us vs. them. Instead, you could have asked the question- "Do you think your abilities are good enough to attempt to play without a helper or scripts?". That would give you an opportunity to see who would be willing to give it a try without having an argument.

I hope this helps. This is an awesome game with awesome people who still play it. We should focus on our similarities rather than our differences.


Oso,

Well said. BTW, I miss getting my butt kicked by you on Outpost. LOL

H

Author:  EleqTriziT [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I'd also like to add that I don't look down upon those who use or wrote bots. TradeWars turned into an arms race of scripting a very long time ago. I can't see that there was ever any choice to anyone who kept playing and wanted to get a leg up on their competition. It HAD to happen.

Author:  Oso [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

Helix wrote:
Oso wrote:
I hate comparing apples to oranges, but here goes:

We all love Ice Cream. Some of us love Vanilla, some of us love Chocolate.
Instead of declaring death to the Chocoholics, we should focus on our mutual love for Ice Cream. Some of us even like our Vanilla with chocolate chips...

We are all here because we love TW. We might not all like the same aspects of the game, but we all love the game as a whole. If you find that you have a following for a no-scripting or helper game, then go for it. But the way you approached this put it forward as an us vs. them. Instead, you could have asked the question- "Do you think your abilities are good enough to attempt to play without a helper or scripts?". That would give you an opportunity to see who would be willing to give it a try without having an argument.

I hope this helps. This is an awesome game with awesome people who still play it. We should focus on our similarities rather than our differences.


Oso,

Well said. BTW, I miss getting my butt kicked by you on Outpost. LOL

H


You still playing there? I am in one game on Archy's server and I am trying to knock off all the rust.

Author:  Micro [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

I really don't have a priblem with scripting, with the exception of AFK scripts. I do have a problem when a player is botting another players. My real beef is that everything we used to call cheating is now called an "advanced tactic" and accepted by everyone.

Author:  Big D [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

You guys are forgetting the most important part of this conversation. It's an option!
Will this option be used very much? I doubt it.
Is it an option that I would use it? No
Will some unscrupulous scripter try to get around it? Very possible.

I'd much rather have had a few things to help sysops enforce a truce game than this, but I'm not the programmer.

Author:  Micro [ Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should scripts be allowed or disallowed in Tradewars

Big D wrote:
Will some unscrupulous scripter try to get around it? Very possible.

I don't think "unscrupulous" is a strong enough word. There is no way that anyone could consider "working around" this as an "advanced tactic" or accetable game play. If someone is that determined to cheat, then no-one should be willing to play with them.

And yes, this is an optional feature, so those who want to play un-inhibited can continue to do so...

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