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 Combat Script writing, different versions 
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Unread post Combat Script writing, different versions
I have been doing some reading, looking for information on various things, thinking about trying to get more serious about scripting and maybe getting back into playing here and there. Anyway, while I was going through old posts searching for other information, I read some older posts from a couple of years ago that got me to thinking.

In these posts they talked about bugs in Ver 2 that might effect combat scripts and macros and such, and that you wouldn't even know it until you got into the combat, even remember something about a bug that sometimes dropped you to the login screen right in the middle of a melee at times, which wouldn't be good. So I was wondering if the bugs they had talked about in the old posts had kind of been ironed out and aren't so much of a factor for script writing and such?

The other thing they talked about was changes in timing, command processing being different with the new server, things like that. I was wondering in what ways that would affect combat type scripts and macros, and how might one go about compensating for it? Or if I should just script for and plan on playing Ver 1 games if I do come back. I cut my teeth on Ver 1 and that is where I did all my playing, so it has me wondering.

Also, I was wondering if the more skilled & knowledgeable scripters might have some insight on which Version to install as my local game for writing scripts and initial testing and such. Would I be better off sticking with Ver 2 and working through that even if I did decide to mostly play Ver 1 games? Or should I switch back to Version 1 for my local work? Maybe use Version 2 server just so that my scripts would work in both maybe, in case I did decide to wander into a Ver 2 game and check it out or something?

I appreciate any insight people can shed on this for me, and if anyone wants to send things more privately or discuss it via another method just let me know. Thanks.


Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:17 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
V1 has what I consider a spam attack bug.

You can macro attack multiple times and then retreat and the enemy cannot attack you. That's been fixed in V2, now both opponents can attack each other at the same time without either getting spammed.

Give it a try, you say you have both installed. I'd say that was one of the major combat differences.

Again... I'm not a script writer, there may be others. I play both versions, the script writer on my team has optimized our team Mombot for both.

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Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:45 am
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
SteveH_66 wrote:
Thanks.


Honestly coming from someone who has done in depth research into micro timings of what v1 offered just write for v2 if you have a choice. The players that still play mostly play on V2 servers at this point and outside of some annoying changes to how and more importantly when a sequence of events keys up you won't notice that much of a difference from a scripting perspective.

Because of the "leveling" out of the timings you just have to be more creative in how you move, grid, attack, defend and it requires more team related efforts that previously needed.

If your intention to to write complex timing aggressive scripts, then v2 isn't for you. It's not possible in V2 to avoid certain actions you could prior by building macros/buffers which improve your odds vs. server latency via how the server qued commands.

Basic things like P-Drop no longer catch traders because all the timings are similar to where it's inconsequential per JP latest iteration of V2. He had intended but never found the time to address things like Photons, Planets and some kinds of warp (XWarp) being faster than standard Twarp (To match V1 as a option); but sadly never got to it.

/edit: further clarification and readability

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Last edited by Kaus on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:01 am, edited 7 times in total.



Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:49 am
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Cruncher wrote:
V1 has what I consider a spam attack bug.


To clarify it wasn't a bug regardless of your opinion, it was simply how the server processed commands. If your curious I can expand on the concept, but I doubt you'd care.

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Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:50 am
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Cruncher
Thanks for the reply, I always like to hear all sides of an issue. Fortunately, RL kept me from posting long enough that Kaus was able to reply. I don't know enough about game-play any more, or programming and the mechanics of computer programs, to be able to make an informed decision as to whether it was a bug or not.

On that subject, if Kaus knows enough about programming and scripting to be able to write a script testing server side timing & server command processing, personally I'm going to have to defer to his much greater knowledge of the subject than mine on that subject.

Not saying your opinion isn't valid to you and possibly others, just saying he knows much more about the mechanics of programming and scripting than I do. Just saying from a scripting perspective I would have to go with what he says about the subject, unless others more knowledgeable about scripting pop in and show where this is wrong from a scripting perspective.

Even if it were decided by someone to be a 'bug', it's not a critical game changer, I haven't played a game outside my local script testing server in over 10 years, so my knowledge of game-play is almost zero at this point, but I can think of at least one work-around and additions to the work around, which might help counter this tactic, maybe even help turn it against the user. Actually 2 possible work-arounds, depending on the sector it happens in.

I have more thoughts on this, I may post about it in Open Discussion as that is a more suitable place for opinions and such. After the war, confrontation can be stressful to me, the thought of being 'flamed' over opinions in a forum being one thing I find stressful at times. Not saying I consider your reply 'flaming' me Cruncher, just saying it can get a bit more heated over in Open Discussion :lol:

Kaus
Thank you for your reply. Based on what you said, I will script for and play in Version 1 games, if I come back and play at all.

Kaus wrote:
Basic things like P-Drop no longer catch traders because all the timings are similar to where it's inconsequential per JP latest iteration of V2. He had intended but never found the time to address things like Photons, Planets and some kinds of warp (XWarp) being faster than standard Twarp (To match V1 as a option); but sadly never got to it.


I find the above game mechanics unacceptable. I will not play in a game where this happens. If Version 2 gets the fixes you mentioned in my quote of that section of your post, then I would play a Version 2 game. I have further thoughts on this, more appropriate to Open Discussion I think, and I might post further about them over there.

But my advice to JP would be even if he would consider making changes to the code to correct that misbehavior of the server, not to do it on my part. I'm a 'never-was' who might not ever be able to even play the game much due to real life and such. It would be kind of silly to change a whole game to fulfill the desires of one person who might not even be able to play it all that much due to other demands in real life.

So thanks again to both of you for taking the time and effort to make replies to my original post. It is interesting to me from an intellectual standpoint.

Edited for clarity


Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:49 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Kaus wrote:
Cruncher wrote:
V1 has what I consider a spam attack bug.


To clarify it wasn't a bug regardless of your opinion, it was simply how the server processed commands. If your curious I can expand on the concept, but I doubt you'd care.


The reason why I call it a bug is because the way this works was unintentional by the programmer... JP. It wasn't until T0yman and I brought this to his attention that it did get fixed.

v1 has basically NO timing whatsoever, so burst macros are just that, a burst of commands that execute nearly spontaneously. Back in the day, you never saw this execute that fast simply because of the inherent latency of the internet. Today things can process much faster. One of the major changes that JP made to v2... and let's be clear, no one asked for it, this was his decision. He instituted a minimum speed of 10ms. That slowed the burst macros and now enables you to "return fire" in a pvp attack.

And again, I do NOT write scripts, but I do play both v1 and v2 and for the casual player, you won't notice a difference. But in some of the highly competitive "BIG" games like the upcoming HHT, you best have a script writer on your team that does know the difference and can compensate for both.

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Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:16 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
SteveH_66 wrote:

Even if it were decided by someone to be a 'bug', it's not a critical game changer, I haven't played a game outside my local script testing server in over 10 years, so my knowledge of game-play is almost zero at this point, but I can think of at least one work-around and additions to the work around, which might help counter this tactic, maybe even help turn it against the user. Actually 2 possible work-arounds, depending on the sector it happens in.

I have more thoughts on this, I may post about it in Open Discussion as that is a more suitable place for opinions and such. After the war, confrontation can be stressful to me, the thought of being 'flamed' over opinions in a forum being one thing I find stressful at times. Not saying I consider your reply 'flaming' me Cruncher, just saying it can get a bit more heated over in Open Discussion :lol:


Too funny, you thought "I" was flaming you? I was trying to educate you on the realities of playing today. Anyway I invite you to come play HHT to see how the game is played today with aggressive scripts. vid is looking for some teammates and he's extremely well versed in scripting and advanced play. Hit him up in TeamSpeak.

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Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:22 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Cruncher wrote:
SteveH_66 wrote:

Not saying I consider your reply 'flaming' me Cruncher, just saying it can get a bit more heated over in Open Discussion :lol:


Too funny, you thought "I" was flaming you? I was trying to educate you on the realities of playing today.


No you misunderstood me Cruncher, as you can see from the above quote. I was saying I didn't consider what you said to be 'flaming' me, I understood you were just expressing to me your views on how game-play is working in the game today :lol:

I was talking about posting over in Open Discussion, although that was mostly joking, I have read the forum rules for OD and I've seen Oso working over there. He lets people express opinions a bit more freely and it can get a little more heated over there, in the interests of free expression would be my guess, but from what I've seen reading over there Oso will come in and delete a post or lock a thread if he thinks it's getting too close to the start of a 'flame war' lol.

Now I looked around at some posts over in that hyperspace forum or whatever it was, and it looked like it could get pretty rough and tumble over there at times. :wink:

Anyway, if I have anything else to say in here I better try to get it back on-topic about scripting and game-play as it relates to scripting, cause I know EP and the other mods in here will delete posts and lock them if you start straying off topic or getting childish, I've seen them come in and drop the hammer on people before in here. Just playing with y'all EP, you folks do a good job moderating in here and I think Oso does over there as well :lol:


Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:13 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Kaus wrote:
SteveH_66 wrote:
Thanks.

Basic things like P-Drop no longer catch traders because all the timings are similar to where it's inconsequential per JP latest iteration of V2. He had intended but never found the time to address things like Photons, Planets and some kinds of warp (XWarp) being faster than standard Twarp (To match V1 as a option); but sadly never got to it.


Cruncher wrote:
v1 has basically NO timing whatsoever, so burst macros are just that, a burst of commands that execute nearly spontaneously. Back in the day, you never saw this execute that fast simply because of the inherent latency of the internet. Today things can process much faster. One of the major changes that JP made to v2... and let's be clear, no one asked for it, this was his decision. He instituted a minimum speed of 10ms. That slowed the burst macros and now enables you to "return fire" in a pvp attack.


My concern about things in Version 2 are what Kaus said, as I quoted above. I can understand what you were saying where I just quoted you Cruncher, and I totally agree with JP making changes he feels are necessary to keep the game stable and avoid database corruption in the server and such.

He wants a stable game server, and I don't think any of us can fault him for that. He's a programmer, I'm not, so he knows more about what is needed to keep his game server stable than I ever will. So I thank you both for explaining what you did for me, and I understand JP's thoughts on the matter.

I'm just hoping that when JP gets a chance, maybe he can make those changes to Version 2 that Kaus mentioned in the latter part of the section of his post that I quoted, which Kaus said he intended to make but hasn't been able to get around to yet, to get Version 2 back to similar behavior to Version 1 on those types of things like pDrop and warp dropping someone, things like that.

I understand he is a busy man and has things he has to do in 'Real Life' and such, so I'm not asking for the changes like 'you have to get on this right now JP', but they would be nice to see when he has enough free time to get around to them.

Anyway, thanks for the answers on the question. I found it educational and enlightening.


Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:41 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
SteveH_66 wrote:

I'm just hoping that when JP gets a chance, maybe he can make those changes to Version 2 that Kaus mentioned in the latter part of the section of his post that I quoted, which Kaus said he intended to make but hasn't been able to get around to yet, to get Version 2 back to similar behavior to Version 1 on those types of things like pDrop and warp dropping someone, things like that.



Yes, the fact that with some delay settings you can get things happening "out of sequence". This is particularly true when ship movement is faster than the latency setting. We had this happen in a BIG game once, and it was very challenging, but eventually Xanos did find a work around.

Think of it this way.. blam you're podded and #SD#, then you see the message that a photon has been fired into your sector, followed by your enemy, their planet and #Poof# you've got the night off. You never saw it coming!

One could argue that one setting cannot be faster than another if they are related to the same movement delays. I think Micro knew what he was doing when he choose that timing for the BIG game he hosted. That threw a "monkey wrench" in everyone's scripts. You have to think fast and roll with the settings. - OR - choose to play games with settings that appeal to you.

(If you think hyperspace got dicey, you should have seen the "Flame Wars" forum we had here. JP shut it down.)

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Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:00 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
SteveH_66 wrote:
Kaus wrote:
Basic things like P-Drop no longer catch traders because all the timings are similar to where it's inconsequential per JP latest iteration of V2. He had intended but never found the time to address things like Photons, Planets and some kinds of warp (XWarp) being faster than standard Twarp (To match V1 as a option); but sadly never got to it.


Quote:
I find the above game mechanics unacceptable. I will not play in a game where this happens. If Version 2 gets the fixes you mentioned in my quote of that section of your post, then I would play a Version 2 game. I have further thoughts on this, more appropriate to Open Discussion I think, and I might post further about them over there.

But my advice to JP would be even if he would consider making changes to the code to correct that misbehavior of the server, not to do it on my part. I'm a 'never-was' who might not ever be able to even play the game much due to real life and such. It would be kind of silly to change a whole game to fulfill the desires of one person who might not even be able to play it all that much due to other demands in real life.

So thanks again to both of you for taking the time and effort to make replies to my original post. It is interesting to me from an intellectual standpoint.

Edited for clarity


Just one more note, if you find the above unacceptable you should also be aware when choosing whether to run v1 or v2, that IGs are also borked quite nicely in v2. They fail to activate if a trader warps out of sector after a successful pdrop on them. Whether there are other circumstances where IGs are busted I can't say, and whether this was not a bug but a "feature," I also can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me, and it sure does make it easy to steamroll over a grid and invade.

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:54 am
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
CBYNot wrote:
Just one more note, if you find the above unacceptable you should also be aware when choosing whether to run v1 or v2, that IGs are also borked quite nicely in v2. They fail to activate if a trader warps out of sector after a successful pdrop on them. Whether there are other circumstances where IGs are busted I can't say, and whether this was not a bug but a "feature," I also can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me, and it sure does make it easy to steamroll over a grid and invade.



This is the first I've heard of this one. Trust me, it was not a requested "feature" for v2.

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:42 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Kaus wrote:
Cruncher wrote:
V1 has what I consider a spam attack bug.


To clarify it wasn't a bug regardless of your opinion, it was simply how the server processed commands. If your curious I can expand on the concept, but I doubt you'd care.

I consider it to be a bug. I'm sure the designer never intended for it to function that way. Technically, I guess we should call it a design flaw.

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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Micro wrote:
I consider it to be a bug. I'm sure the designer never intended for it to function that way. Technically, I guess we should call it a design flaw.


You're entitled to your opinion, I can't speak for how MBBS and other boards processed events when compared to what V1 is/was.

The term Bug would indicate that it was unintentional, I'm not sure CPC and the effects latency had/how a server assigned priority on CPC was unintentional as much as it may have been a legacy oversight. But I can agree it may have been a design flaw when viewed with current day glasses in respect to the time-period of which JP wrote the server initially.

Latency based advantage (e.g. local vs. remote 100ms) has existed in some form or another since MBBS as evidenced by Hellcat being given #1 killer when his advantage was fast macros and a even faster connection when the rest of us had dial-up. However latency based advantages really isn't the entire reason people like myself get pissy when we reminisce when viewed in context of macros.

Some players including myself enjoyed the micro-timing game that dominated much of the late 90's and 00, it would be nice for JP to follow through and either make game mechanics (XWARP, PWARP, etc..) definable or allow of a "Classic/V1" option in future iterations of the V2 software. While the thread referenced "over-sight" played a role in some of the advantage, CPC and how the server processed commands played a significantly larger role.

/Edit and Elaboration/
To me at least it makes much more sense to have an ability to dodge a photon, prevent someone from gridding or if your lucky grid at least a-few sectors while players are online. I mean it's a pretty basic concept of what was and what currently is. In the process of JP eliminating "lag advantage" he also destroyed a portion of the game that had a significant fanbase.

It can be demonstrated somewhat easily in the below scenario.

Code:
Player A want to grid a single sector        |   Player B wants to stop player A

Macros: M* 1234* a987654321* <               |   M* 1233*y c p1234* y   

In V1 with CPC vs. a V2 all-at-once-server it processed commands in batches within it's CPC buffer (sysop definable) most servers had it set high so it was basically who had the shortest Macro.

At a high level, In the above example Player A sent 4 total commands whereas player B sent 5 as defined by the number of times a unique command is presented. In my opinion it makes more logical sense that player A would have the time difference between 4 commands and 5 to escape as defined by command latency and the availability of a extra processing cycle(missing command) at their disposal.

You can visually verify this just by looking at the length of the above macros regardless if either macro is successful I think you would be hard pressed to defend the second macro processing at the same time as the first as has been evidenced by V2 attack mechanics.

With V2 this micro timing of say 50milliseconds doesn't exist because there is no inherent latency of the commands as they process together and as one. The underlined and italicized portion represents in a nutshell my personal beef with V2 and what I worked with JP to attempt to correct before his hiatus. Flat synchronous timings really don't do this game justice and until a-few years back never existed.

In fact many games genres capitalize on this concept of micro-timings because it separates basic players who only casually play and the "hardcore" players who generally spend more time and thus more money on a game.

I won't expand on how players added to the 50millisecond gap to increase there odds of dodging a photon (roughly 90ms to do so) outside to say that Dynarris Macro Tutorial covers the concept pretty extensively and in the above scenario it would equate to only dodging a photon maybe 2 - 4 of the times before the gridder is shut down because of the very latency players asked him to remove with V2.

The macros above also do not account for Pdrop, Xwarp and other defensive capabilities in V1 such as limp tracking, etc... which were near impossible to dodge due to zero latency movement penalties. JP personally told me and reiterated here on the board multiple times it was never his intent to change V1 timings and gameplay but rather offer options to players in effort to draw new players who struggled against the largely automated gameplay of V1 (also present in V2).

John Pritchett wrote:
The intention is for defaults to be the same as v1.03 settings. Any changes in behavior stem from internal changes to optimize the game's IO. TWGSv2 can run many times faster than v1.03, which is why the pacing was necessary. Instead of running faster, it will run more efficiently, supporting a larger number of players. But differences in how commands are processed can impact how the game plays for very advanced players. I have some changes in mind to restore at least some of the original behavior in the latest version.

The game pace still needs work. I was originally working with Singularity to work out the proper pace for various actions in the game, but he moved on before we really got that nailed down. I'm open to feedback on how that can be improved. If any action seems too fast or two slow, it's a simple matter for me to tweak the timings.


Further Reading:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33067 <- Complaints about scripting and purposed changes thread

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33057 <- Timing Thread related to photons specifically and change in gameplay/attack mechanics as a result

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=33014 <- JP conversation about broken timings he also says timing differences are unintentional between v1 and v2

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=33054 <- CPC Tracking Thread

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Last edited by Kaus on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:13 pm
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Unread post Re: Combat Script writing, different versions
Kaus wrote:
John says timing differences are unintentional between v1 and v2
He may have said that, but he completely re-wrote the mechanism that controls timing. It was clearly his intent to slow things down a bit, even with all delays turned off.

It is hard to know what Gary Martin's intent was. He didn't write MBBS or V3.x versions... It is still too fast for human players (IMO)... I am dead before I even see the message that I'm being attacked... so I never had a chance... unless I had a defensive script running...

He also changing formatting in numerous places (i.e. Ship Catalog)... Intentional or not... almost all scripts were broken in some way or another...

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