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 Latest bug fixes are in 
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Unread post Latest bug fixes are in
I just dropped in the latest update on the beta server. I feel confident that the mail system is working well, so I'd like to get some testing done for the new fixes.

1) Planet negotiation display no longer truncates on 3 digits. Make sure this doesn't break any scripts or helpers, and if it does, what can I do to avoid that?
2) When doing planetary transwarp and answering "no", if the fig lock decays while you're at the Citadel or Planet prompt, you'll get dropped to the sector Command Prompt. This has been fixed. It's probably hard to test here because fig decay is set to a large number, but I'm comfortable that it's working.
3) Logging in to an active user account will force the active account offline without committing some of its data like time remaining. This is a pretty general bug, and could effect a number of things related to the user record and forcing the user offline. If you know of any bugs or exploits that involve forcing a connection offline, please try it and see if this fixes it.

I was unable to reproduce any bugs related to CBY and the start menu. I know there are some downsides to having a player drop out past the start menu to the TWGS menu, but if there are bugs related to hanging at this start menu, I'd rather just bypass it and clean that up. If you drop from the game, I'd like to change it so you always drop all the way out, and the only way you can get to the start menu is by restarting. I guess this doesn't have to include a normal "Q" exit from the game, but it would be cleaner if it did. I know that might break some scripts and helper functions if I did that, so let me know if there are objections.

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Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:39 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
John Pritchett wrote:
I know that might break some scripts and helper functions if I did that, so let me know if there are objections.


Yeh, it would kindof kill exit-enter macros if the straight Q exited you all the way to the BBS
menu. It would also make it difficult to exit out manually and check the * and S settings,
which is not really optimal. There are pauses and ANSI menu issues, so you can't macro thru
the BBS menu.

How about if you just add a timeout (with no keepalive option) to the T prompt and it's
sub-menus? Right now, there is no timeout there. But a 300 second timeout would be plenty.

Couldn't you also commit session data (like time remaining) after quitting out?

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Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:58 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
first, let me say thank you thank you thank you for investing some time into the game for bug fixes and general cleanup. it is much needed and welcome attention.

along sing's comments - it's hard to do macros from the bbs screen because when you press a letter to select a game to join, i think the twgs launches a tw2002.exe instance - and any keystrokes you sent after the game letter in your macro get lost and the new tw2002.exe instance doesn't ever see it.

so if every exit from the game drops you all the way back to the bbs prompt there are several consequences for scripts:
  1. every script that intentionally exits the game (say to clean a limpet) would have to know the game letter to successfully re-enter
  2. re-entering the game is complicated by the launching of tw2002.exe, which requires more than a simple macro due to keystroke loss

another approach that could be helpful, though probably deserving of thought, would be to remove incentives for performing exit/re-enter actions. for example, one legitimate reason to exit/re-enter is to clean up a pile of limpets in a sector - for zero turn cost. personally, i've always been considerably annoyed when i invest a lot of money to put 250 limpets in a sector only to have them wiped out while i was offline at practically zero cost to my opponent. perhaps it would be a good idea to check a player's ship upon login to see if they already have a limpet on their hull and only attach a new one if it is from a different player or corp. this would force players to actually spend turns to clean out a lot of limpets - they would have to leave the sector and move back in to pick up a limpet.

or even more costly, you could force players to actually clean off a limpet from corp A before they could pick up another limpet from corp A - though this would have a much larger impact on grid defense because currently, we depend on limpets for sector entry notification and that would be broken if an opponent enters your sector and they already have your limpet on their hull - no new limpet would attach and notify you.

i'm sure sing and others can list out all the currently legitimate reasons for exit/re-enter actions. i'm not sure if it would be OK to remove all incentives. some game data can only be gotten out at the T-menu, like the * screen. if you made the * screen accessible in-game then that incentive could be removed with zero impact on game play.

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Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:34 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
the reverend wrote:
another approach that could be helpful, though probably deserving of thought, would be to remove incentives for performing exit/re-enter actions.


From a tactical standpoint, there are other reasons. If a fig is dampened by a photon, an exit-enter will let
you clear it and lay a fig. That's vital for pgridding into dampened sectors.

Forcing ppl to the BBS prompt will not stop exit-enter clearing. Instead, people will exit in the citadel, then
re-enter, lift and land. If you remove that, you run the risk of removing limpets from the entry list. That
would make limpets pointless. Expensive paper weights.

the reverend wrote:
or even more costly, you could force players to actually clean off a limpet from corp A before they could pick up another limpet from corp A -


Oh I'd love that. I'd keep your limpet on me when gridding in unlims to make sure I never tag on what's
under my figs. A lot of potential for abuse here. The way it's done now provides for the least amount of
abuse.

the reverend wrote:
i'm sure sing and others can list out all the currently legitimate reasons for exit/re-enter actions. i'm not sure if it would be OK to remove all incentives. some game data can only be gotten out at the T-menu, like the * screen. if you made the * screen accessible in-game then that incentive could be removed with zero impact on game play.


It's just a compromise between how limpets need to work and what's feasible. There are plenty of legit
reasons to quit from the game. Most of them would not seriously impact script play, since there are plenty
of ways to bypass the problem. Most of them would just be a hassle for people manually checking stuff.

Really, all of this only applies to voluntary quitting from the game. If you get knocked for a timeout, or
knocked because you're dead, or knocked because you've CBY'd, knocked the BBS prompt is fine. Where
it gets messy is when ppl quit out on purpose.

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Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:47 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Ok, that basically confirms my suspicion, that it's not a trivial change to drop to TWGS from "Q". That's fine. What I'd really like is for someone who knows the specific steps to intro-menu related cheats to tell them to me so I can track down the issue rather than band-aiding it. That menu is such a murky area because the player isn't actually in the game, and shouldn't have any live game data, yet clearly being at that menu has some effect on game state.

If I have time, I'd like to do a thorough study of the limpet situation because I do feel that the no-cost clearing of limpets is a problem. Off the cuff, I'd say that any "exit/enter" that costs turns should trigger a limpet, but any that doesn't cost turns (exit to menu, re-enter game or land/takeoff) should not. Is that a naive solution?

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:19 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
As for CBY , dropping past the T menu will eliminate cby cashing .. although it isn't too common , its still out there.

Also will eliminate Menu watching in a timed game , also some of the scripts to
log out to save time and back into game things in mom bot some have used
during timed tourneys in the past.

I'm sure some can get used to the change and adapt , others will move on to other things.

Maybe even go to the old style to see how they fair for awhile.

I for one can't wait to see what trade wars will be in the future for the most part.

And let me say Thank You , for coming back and fixing the last of the
bugs and perfecting the game.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:11 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Vid Kid wrote:
As for CBY , dropping past the T menu will eliminate cby cashing .. although it isn't too common , its still out there.


No it won't, it'll just slow it down. You can easily disconnect, reconnect and log back in.

Vid Kid wrote:
Also will eliminate Menu watching in a timed game , also some of the scripts to
log out to save time and back into game things in mom bot some have used
during timed tourneys in the past.


Nah, you can still sit at the menu. Just might have to relog occasionally.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:15 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Scripter arguments are funny :lol:

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:55 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
That is so true KB , and the ones that will be hurt the most are the returning
players or those that rely on public scripts available.

Which really means , it will screw things up for most others by making drastic changes.
Unless Sing plans to put up some new scripts to help everyone with the
new mods to the way the game works after the fixes.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:10 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Vid Kid wrote:
Unless Sing plans to put up some new scripts to help everyone with the
new mods to the way the game works after the fixes.


So your argument is: We shouldn't change any of this stuff because it'll screw with
public scripts, giving private scripters a bigger advantage. Right?

There's a problem with that logic in this instance: There are no public CBY cashing
scripts. And the only "menu watcher" that's public is in the bot, and it has never
worked right. W/ both of those, private scripters have always held the advantage.
Those that continue to benefit from said advantage are more than capable of
adjusting their scripts.

JP has already said that nothing is sacrosanct. My only concern is that common
tactics remain available where possible. The implementation of those tactics...
eh, flexibility is going to be important, methinks. Hence the reason I'm participating
in this process, to help ensure my views are represented.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:32 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
So how about this guys. What if it cost 1 turn to exit and enter to the game prompt and if you had no turns, initiate a delay until you had turns before you could log back in just as if you were out of time. Hence not effecting unlimited turn games, but would effect turn games and most official games.


Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:20 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Big D wrote:
So how about this guys. What if it cost 1 turn to exit and enter to the game prompt and if you had no turns, initiate a delay until you had turns before you could log back in just as if you were out of time. Hence not effecting unlimited turn games, but would effect turn games and most official games.


Uhm... so if you get photoned and exit the game, either on purpose or accident,
you can't log back in until you have turns? I think that wouldn't work very well.
Would make invading bases easier tho, just photon them and get figs down in
their base. Good luck clearing them... hehe

I think something like that has a lot of potential for abuse.

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May the unholy fires of corbomite ignite deep within the depths of your soul...

1. TWGS server @ twgs.navhaz.com
2. The NavHaz Junction - Tradewars 2002 Scripts, Resources and Downloads
3. Open IRC chat @ irc.freenode.net:6667 #twchan
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Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:18 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Big D , the problem is the public ck exit enter with the kick to main menu would be effected and not work anyways.

But I agree some fix for the exploit of limpits has to be worked out.
I had thought about (as someone already mentioned)
that another one would not attack .. but that could be exploited , unless the limpit message would still shout out , although no new limp from same source would attach.

just a thought.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:49 pm
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
How about a op controlled timer since last death reentry? Most cby cashing is only profitable if able to take advantage of reentry cost, whereas the point of Zero death delay is to allow newer player back in. Given they die less as frequently as a player cby cashing the op can mandate a timer between last death and reentry while leaving the rest of the current valid tactics alive.

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Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:46 am
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Unread post Re: Latest bug fixes are in
Kaus wrote:
How about a op controlled timer since last death reentry? Most cby cashing is only profitable if able to take advantage of reentry cost, whereas the point of Zero death delay is to allow newer player back in. Given they die less as frequently as a player cby cashing the op can mandate a timer between last death and reentry while leaving the rest of the current valid tactics alive.



There should be some type of penalty for CBY'in. Littering space with multiple ship debris should be against whatever law system the feds have set up;) So after initial start whether its CBY/SD your next ship coming in should contain much LESS starting cash/figs/shields. SD might not be as fair, but a CBY usage should have a penalty.

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