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 Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays 
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
My saveme guy has a good ping..i am not seeing 20 land attempts b4 he shows atm.

Command [TL=00:00:00]:[xxxx] (?=Help)? : Z
Do you want instructions (Y/N) [N]? No

Command [TL=00:00:00]:[xxxx] (?=Help)? : L
<Preparing ship to land on planet surface>

Command [TL=00:00:00]:[xxxx] (?=Help)? : J
<Jettison Cargo>

Are you sure you want to jettison all cargo? (Y/N) No

Corp 1 Protector has just materialized from the void!
R zep [zep] - Saveme script activated - Planet 2 to xxxx on attempt 12

Command [TL=00:00:00]:[xxxx] (?=Help)? : L
<Preparing ship to land on planet surface>
Planet command (?=help) [D]

Planet command (?=help) [D]

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:41 pm
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
I dont think an extra 4 ms there will allow for a torp hit

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:42 pm
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
John Pritchett wrote:
For those who don't think manual players exist and that the setting would be worthless, keep in mind that it's equally relevant to "No delay" ship settings where a 250 ms delay is currently used for ship movement and attacks. If I apply a pace scale factor to every delay uniformly, then a server where the gameop needs to slow the maximum speed of the game down by, say, 1/4th, would also increase the move delay to 1 second. While many script players might not be too bothered by a max 125 actions per second of a 1/4th pace game, they probably would be bothered by a 1 second move delay.

The question I have is, if you slowed down most actions but didn't slow down actual move delay, would that imbalance games too much? It's a complicated question and maybe it won't be obvious until players actually try playing a game with a quarter pace and normal 250 ms move. However that works, it won't be any worse than the CPC pacing system that's been available in the past.

I would really like gameops to be able to slow the pace of games somewhat, if they need to, without alienating players with a slow move rate. With the current pacing, many current machines are going to experience lags during certain actions like moving product. Eventually, as systems continue to get more efficient, these CPU lags will go away. But until that time, there needs to be a way to pace the game without turning off the players. I see the ship movement delay (even for NO SHIP DELAY games) as being much more effected by pace scaling than any other delay. A limit of 250 actions per second compared to 500 is not that noticeable, but half a second move compared to a quarter second is what people are going to notice.


When you’re ready, give us a couple of examples on the beta server. If at all possible name the games ¼ pace / ¼ ship delay or ¼ pace / 0 ship delay or whatever settings you’ve chosen so we can give you some feedback. I wouldn’t try something like this on the classic server just yet.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:42 pm
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
Thrawn wrote:
Big D wrote:
If JP makes these puts these new delays in a config file in the beta, then most of the old delay options will be obsolete except to sysops that won't understand how to configure them.

BTW, the old TWA edits that have aliens in them will be worthless. Considering the changes in alien behavior, those edits will be way off track.


Not worthless, just not usable with the next release. We'll have to ensure we mark them as TWGS v1.03 in our database download section so those looking to download them will know which version they belong to.


How much trouble would it be to update them for the new release, once it's completed?

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:45 pm
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
Cruncher wrote:
Thrawn wrote:
Big D wrote:
If JP makes these puts these new delays in a config file in the beta, then most of the old delay options will be obsolete except to sysops that won't understand how to configure them.

BTW, the old TWA edits that have aliens in them will be worthless. Considering the changes in alien behavior, those edits will be way off track.


Not worthless, just not usable with the next release. We'll have to ensure we mark them as TWGS v1.03 in our database download section so those looking to download them will know which version they belong to.


How much trouble would it be to update them for the new release, once it's completed?


That depends. Either the original creators of the edits will need to change them/recreate them via the new TWGS so they fit the new changes, get someone running the new TWGS to do it for them, or they remain for v1.03 only. I may keep both versions of all the edits we created- just in case.

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Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:59 pm
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
@Sing, I'm open to changes to all of the proposed synch delays as well as the "No ship delay" movement delay of 250 ms, whatever it takes to get the right balance. Just tell me what you want to try and we'll see how it works.

@Parrothead, I just want to make sure you understand that when I say "ship delays", I mean not only the fractional "second per turn per warp" delays, but also the universal 250 ms per warp that's used when "no ship delays" is set. In fact, it's the "no ship delay" that I'm most worried about here. I don't want to lengthen that delay for slower paced games unless I absolutely have to in order to maintain balance.

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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
K.

In most ship delay games, people know to create a
1tpw ship for gridding. All a ship delay does then is
increase the amount of time it takes for a killer ship
to move around or to power up weapons. IMO, it is
independent of these delays for that reason.

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Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:38 am
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
Cruncher wrote:
Thrawn wrote:
Big D wrote:
If JP makes these puts these new delays in a config file in the beta, then most of the old delay options will be obsolete except to sysops that won't understand how to configure them.

BTW, the old TWA edits that have aliens in them will be worthless. Considering the changes in alien behavior, those edits will be way off track.


Not worthless, just not usable with the next release. We'll have to ensure we mark them as TWGS v1.03 in our database download section so those looking to download them will know which version they belong to.


How much trouble would it be to update them for the new release, once it's completed?


It won't be a problem tweaking the aliens and archiving them in the newer version. It just has to be done with someone with a lot of alien experience and tested to make sure the settings are right.


Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:06 am
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
John Pritchett wrote:
@Parrothead, I just want to make sure you understand that when I say "ship delays", I mean not only the fractional "second per turn per warp" delays, but also the universal 250 ms per warp that's used when "no ship delays" is set. In fact, it's the "no ship delay" that I'm most worried about here. I don't want to lengthen that delay for slower paced games unless I absolutely have to in order to maintain balance.


Just so were talking same language here.

If you have a 4tpw ship then the delay would be 1000ms total. My granny could torp/kill such a ship.
Powering up weapons would be same. There is no way I can think of to balance such a delay with bwarp and pwarp movement. Therefore you cant have planets in such an edit. So it would be red cashing and ship to ship combat only...mostly at dock because there would be no way to stop a gridder but with no planets why bother with grid.




Cruncher wrote:
How much trouble would it be to update them for the new release, once it's completed?


Alien behavior is changed. The TWA's will need to be redone for beta. Only need to do it once though.

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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
Parrothead wrote:
Perhaps if we could meet these manual players.

I don't know any.


Thier are many many old users from "back in the day" who return to tw in "manual mode". Most dont play long once they find tw seems to have become script vs script, or "you cant compete without a custom tw terminal program" which also requires knowledge of how to write a script file.

I see a few users every month in this boat, sad they give up before they begin.

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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
You can do quite well w/ public scripts.

But yes, we need a way to create...
1. Non aggressive games
2. Builder games

So that people can play while they learn to use scripts.

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Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:13 am
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
John Pritchett wrote:
The question I have is, if you slowed down most actions but didn't slow down actual move delay, would that imbalance games too much? It's a complicated question and maybe it won't be obvious until players actually try playing a game with a quarter pace and normal 250 ms move. However that works, it won't be any worse than the CPC pacing system that's been available in the past.



The ship delay and action delays, it would be good to have a pace setting. Balance is the key, if well documented how each settings effects gameplay that would be great for old and new sysops alike.

You can ask anyone who has ran MajorMud and the numerous "buffer settings" are a total pain for anyone to configure. They are documented as to what they do. Here is an examle of what not to do for a help decription:

POLLRATE - The polling rate is used as a counter between saving
game buffers during the polling routine. The value
for this number is dependant upon both your number of
users who are normally in MajorMUD, your normal system
loading, and your CPU speed. If you have a fast cpu, a
low normal load rate, and a lot of users in MMUD, then
raise this number. If you seem to get a high system
loading with a lot of disk access whenever the buffers
start saving, then RAISE this parameter. In general,
if you have any system pauses while saving, always raise
this parameter.
Default: 275

Confused? :D

Im all for the configutation options just please make clear help for each setting and how it effects other settings and the games performance.

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Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:30 am
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Unread post Re: Ship movement/attack delays vs game pace delays
Stoneslinger wrote:
.......... "you cant compete without a custom tw terminal program" which also requires knowledge of how to write a script file.

I see a few users every month in this boat, sad they give up before they begin.


I occasionally find these players in out of the way games.

Complaining about skill level or scripts or there use is not helpful....
What is helpful and what we do is NOT kill the player but let him live. At least long enough to point him to the free downloads and point him to the beginner friendly games. And/or offer to corp with them and teach them how to use mombot and other basic stuff.

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