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 Unlimited Photon Bug 
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Promethius wrote:
I think a consistent behavior across turns and unlims would be good. Doesn't make a lot of sense to ptorp someone who will simply call "saveme" and then be back gridding within a few seconds. The 1 second photon which is common only disables the ship for a minute - at most even without the bug. If the person is torped closed to the minute click, I am not sure if that is the same issue as launching halfway through the second on an invasion. Would be more interesting if the ptorp disabled planet landing.....


Contemplate carefully what you are suggesting.

With a 2-ship pgridder, I can avoid photons under
the new timing with almost 100% precision. I can
also create bot-based scripts to switch corpies if
someone gets torped. I can do that under corp play.

In solo play you will have no such option. There
exists no pattern a solo can perform that will have
such benefit. Currently, hit-retreat pgridding serves
the solo player well enough. That option will lose its
primary benefit.

If ptorp disabled planet landing then that would
give grid defenders an unbeatable edge. See above.
Giving grid defenders that strength would make
almost every turns game stalemate.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:03 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
The disable option in unlim games should basically mimic the loss of turns for limited turn games. That means you can do anything that doesn't take a turn. That includes landing on a planet (in most cases).

Sing, I'm not sure you understood what I was asking you. I'm not debating whether it should be optional to have a persistent photon effect. What I'm saying is that I would rather have an option to either have the effect or not have the effect, as opposed to an option to have it limited to the original sector or to have it active in any sector. My point is if you can just clear the effect anyway, why even have it? Either the effect is active everywhere and can't be cleared, or it isn't active at all. If the disable effect is not active, then ships would be dampened during the photon wave itself, but not for the long term.

Aside from just requiring new code, a major downside to making this an "original sector" vs "all sectors" effect is that it won't support accidental photon detonations. "All sectors" would, but "original sector only" won't (as it currently does not). To be consistent, I think it's better for the effect to work the same wherever a photon detonates, whether it's a turns or unlimited game. That's why I would prefer this option to be either "photon disables player" or "photon does not disable player".

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:58 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Should this option be limited to only unlim games, or should it also include turn limited games? If the option is either "disable player" or "don't disable player", then for unlim games, that means either you disable the ship for a minute per second of the photon wave, or you don't, and then for limited turn games, either you zero out turns or you don't. Would there be any value in that, or just keep it limited to unlimited turn games?

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:21 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
John Pritchett wrote:
Sing, I'm not sure you understood what I was asking you. I'm not debating whether it should be optional to have a persistent photon effect. What I'm saying is that I would rather have an option to either have the effect or not have the effect, as opposed to an option to have it limited to the original sector or to have it active in any sector. My point is if you can just clear the effect anyway, why even have it? Either the effect is active everywhere and can't be cleared, or it isn't active at all. If the disable effect is not active, then ships would be dampened during the photon wave itself, but not for the long term.


I understand. I'm just trying to explain why an option is
better than no option. Anything that creates a drastic
change should, IMO, be optional. While consistent behavior
is optimal, and probably should be the default choice,
having a particular bug in place for so long makes changes
trickier.

If you want to separate the "photon disables ship" logic
from the "photon dampens sector" logic then you could
accomplish (mostly) the same thing. I think that would
work fine too. If you do that, why not allow it for turn
games too? That could be fun. People could use torps for
invasions w/o using them for grid.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:22 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
The two effects are already seperate in code, which makes it more natural to have an "on or off" toggle for the long-term disable effect.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:24 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
John Pritchett wrote:
The two effects are already seperate in code, which makes it more natural to have an "on or off" toggle for the long-term disable effect.


I think that would work fine. I think having the ability
to disable ship photon effects would be fun, and
provide a way to deal with the unlim problem.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:29 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Singularity wrote:
There are common tricks that everyone knows, and
there are some tricks that I doubt you're familiar with.
Given enough time tho, it's not hard to adapt a script
to work around a given problem (in most cases).


Sigh....

Plock Lock and Wait.....Nope
Plock Under and Wait...Nope Sorry
Photon under and wait....Wont work.
Active Limpet...No go
Adj Scan and Torp...no go
Adj Ambush Torp...Nope sorry.
etc etc ect

It is really not hard to work around the few tricks that work once in a great while.

And the reason the tricks don't work is the foton bug.

Add in saftey xport and the most you lose is a ship once in a great while and take a pod once in a blue moon by someone who gets lucky. I get 3 pods a day. The biggest reason my unlim gridding stops in a game is Boredom.

Parrothead wrote:
Fixing the foton bug would Stop the afk gridding and return some playability to the Unlim's. I am sure Prom and a few other "solo" player may disagree but so there it is.


Singularity wrote:
My gridder ...yada yada.....

The way an unlim is supposed to work is that your
ship is disabled by X minutes (1 minute for every 1
second of the torp). So a 6 second torp means 6
minutes disabled.

The problem is if you change sectors and do something
that causes the sector number to be checked, then
it will clear that flag and you're free to go.



Exactly the bug that needs to be fixed.
You can never get a solid hit on a gridder unless he jumps on a limpet or mine as he has already macro'd the warp out.

If someone wants to hit 10 sectors every 6 minutes then I guess you can call it AFK gridding then so be it. It would be a sad shadow compared to twarp gridding for hours that goes on now. I once gridded non stop against active opponents for 9 hours. I stopped to download a movie. They tried to kill me for a while then gave up and turned on there gridders to get back some sectors. I found it about as exicting as 3 days of wsst in a truce game.

But SG has a point. Lets hear what the unlim players have to say. Maybe they like gridding hours and hours a day and getting nowhere.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:56 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Parrothead wrote:
Sigh....


LOL, You're missing a few.

Parrothead wrote:
Add in saftey xport and the most you lose is a ship once in a great while and take a pod once in a blue moon by someone who gets lucky. I get 3 pods a day.


Yada yada...

Parrothead wrote:
If someone wants to hit 10 sectors every 6 minutes then I guess you can call it AFK gridding then so be it.


If your ping is fast enough, maybe. But then people will
switch to pgridding. You really should check the timings
on the beta tho.

Parrothead wrote:
But SG has a point. Lets hear what the unlim players have to say. Maybe they like gridding hours and hours a day and getting nowhere.


I think that's why JP is going to make it optional.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:02 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Promethius wrote:
Singularity wrote:
But for current unlim players, especially for solo players
who wouldn't have access to the same resources, this
could have a very profound impact. I'm not saying it's
negative, but it has the potential to drastically affect the
way the game is played. And something so broad should
probably be optional in some way.


I think a consistent behavior across turns and unlims would be good. Doesn't make a lot of sense to ptorp someone who will simply call "saveme" and then be back gridding within a few seconds. The 1 second photon which is common only disables the ship for a minute - at most even without the bug. If the person is torped closed to the minute click, I am not sure if that is the same issue as launching halfway through the second on an invasion. Would be more interesting if the ptorp disabled planet landing.....



Its not the "saveme" that is the issue really but the fact that the gridder is Prelocked on the warp out sector and gets hit in the tail. This has Zero effect. I don't suggest disabling the lock as this effects a a lot of other behavior and Strategy in all games But the person who gets Torped is supposed to lose his "turns" (Freedom of movement) for a time period.

Perhaps we need to adjust the code and run a game or 2 and see how it pans out with such a change.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:10 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
[quote="Singularity"]
LOL, You're missing a few.
[/quote

No I think etc etc etc pretty much covers them all...Laff.

Pgridding requires a saveme guy with a good ping and gas to grid.
The whole cycle is slower with any kind of safety scan.
And Limpets would have to be cleared every cycle.

Move planet and burn gas....or send a plimp command.
Either way will slow gridding compared to current methods.

Yes I know..these things mean much less in a unlim than a turns game but it would be a change and give the returning players that haunt these unlims SOME chance at seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe not. But I thought it worth discussing.

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Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:11 pm
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Ok, I've added a TEDIT option called "Photon Disables Player". This works in conjunction with the limited/unlimited turns setting to provide four different behaviors.

1) Limited turns, disable players

When photoned, player loses all turns.

2) Unlimited turns, disable players

When photoned, player is disabled for one minute per second of the Photon wave. Player is disabled even if he/she moves to another sector.

3) Limited turns, don't disable players

During Photon wave duration, player is unable to do anything that requires turns, even if the player changes sectors. After Photon wave passes, player is no longer disabled and continues without any loss of turns.

4) Unlimited turns, don't disable players

During Photon wave duration, player is unable to do anything that requires turns, even if the player changes sectors. After Photon wave passes, player is no longer disabled.

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Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:11 am
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Unread post Re: Unlimited Photon Bug
Good stuff. This should make for interesting new gameplay.

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Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:21 am
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