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| Keeping MSLs clear http://classictw.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=30726 |
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| Author: | John Pritchett [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Keeping MSLs clear |
One of the issues I've heard a lot about is blockading FedSpace by loading up the MSLs. The game attempts to keep the MSLs clear of figs, mines and offensive Citadels, but it only does so at Extern, allowing players to easily circumvent the rules concerning the use of FedSpace and the MSLs. In some cases, Feds enforce rules in realtime, like when you drop a fighter in FedSpace. You get smacked immediately. Would it help to have an option to enforce the MSL rules immediately, maybe for a duration of X days before the rules are relaxed and the MSLs are opened to more aggressive use? This would work like FedSpace, only you'd basically just see a Fed fly in and warn you not to deploy figs, mines, or a Citadel, rather than actually destroying them. This would be a pretty simple way to address the blockading of FedSpace. |
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| Author: | Big D [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Sounds good to me, but debris will stilll be an issue. |
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| Author: | Thrawn [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Does not matter to us. We wrote a script that deals with all of that plus more including debris. But whatever you decide; we can work around it. |
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| Author: | Parrothead [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
I don't think a warning would do anything much if anything. If a grid or wsst etc type scripts dropped the fig then no one would see the warning anyway..it would be spaced out. A fed type penalty is too much as we don't know where the MSL's are at the beginning of the game. So the claas0 Locations either have to be in the "v" screen OR A simple fig destruction (your fig mine instantly implodes from contact with Federation Electromic Warfare Ship) or some such application Or have the fed warp in and kill the fig without any 10% hold loss. |
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| Author: | John Pritchett [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
By "warning", I mean "you can't do that", and the game doesn't do it. That's as opposed to letting you do it, but then destroying what you drop, which is going to be a costly way to learn the new rule. @Thrawn, things you've done to make the game more playable are great, but they're not really solutions to the game in general because not everyone can take advantage of what you've done. Anything you've done that works well and is well received is a candidate for inclusion in the game itself. |
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| Author: | Cruncher [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
John Pritchett wrote: One of the issues I've heard a lot about is blockading FedSpace by loading up the MSLs. The game attempts to keep the MSLs clear of figs, mines and offensive Citadels, but it only does so at Extern, allowing players to easily circumvent the rules concerning the use of FedSpace and the MSLs. In some cases, Feds enforce rules in realtime, like when you drop a fighter in FedSpace. You get smacked immediately. Would it help to have an option to enforce the MSL rules immediately, maybe for a duration of X days before the rules are relaxed and the MSLs are opened to more aggressive use? This would work like FedSpace, only you'd basically just see a Fed fly in and warn you not to deploy figs, mines, or a Citadel, rather than actually destroying them. This would be a pretty simple way to address the blockading of FedSpace. I'll have to agree with PH on this one. We don't want to give away the location of the 0 ports that easily. |
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| Author: | John Pritchett [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Well, I think it's just a reality that if you set the option to enforce Fed law in the MSLs, it's going to be obvious where the MSLs are. That's a trade-off. but what's a bigger issue here, people blockading around FedSpace so players can't move, or knowing where the class 0 ports are located earlier in the game? |
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| Author: | Big D [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Cruncher wrote: John Pritchett wrote: One of the issues I've heard a lot about is blockading FedSpace by loading up the MSLs. The game attempts to keep the MSLs clear of figs, mines and offensive Citadels, but it only does so at Extern, allowing players to easily circumvent the rules concerning the use of FedSpace and the MSLs. In some cases, Feds enforce rules in realtime, like when you drop a fighter in FedSpace. You get smacked immediately. Would it help to have an option to enforce the MSL rules immediately, maybe for a duration of X days before the rules are relaxed and the MSLs are opened to more aggressive use? This would work like FedSpace, only you'd basically just see a Fed fly in and warn you not to deploy figs, mines, or a Citadel, rather than actually destroying them. This would be a pretty simple way to address the blockading of FedSpace. I'll have to agree with PH on this one. We don't want to give away the location of the 0 ports that easily. It doesn't have to be all MSL's, just the msl's from 1 to dock and dock to 1. As I said tho, I don't think this will stop blockades, simply because 100% debris is sufficient in most games. I'm really not sure why debris is even allowed in msl's or fed space. Just make it like the dock is and no debris shows. |
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| Author: | booger [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
theres already an amtrak script to surround the MSL with figs and mines. blockades are kinda here to stay i think... valid tactic et cetera, yadda yadda |
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| Author: | John Pritchett [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Right, BigD, why not include clearing of debris as part of this option. Basically, anything that is currently done in Extern should be done in realtime, and beyond that, anything needed to keep those lanes clear. I don't think "it's here to stay" is in the best interest of the game. Obviously players and gameops have considered this a problem for awhile, and there are scripts that deal with it, so I'd like to explore ways to include those improvements in the game so every gameop can take advantage of them. |
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| Author: | Thrawn [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
John Pritchett wrote: @Thrawn, things you've done to make the game more playable are great, but they're not really solutions to the game in general because not everyone can take advantage of what you've done. Anything you've done that works well and is well received is a candidate for inclusion in the game itself. I understand. I was merely stating that from our point of view, we're fine with whatever you want to change/include/alter. What we do here can now be changed/altered to work around your provisions with ease. If you do allow something like your suggestion, it would allow me to have the script do something else in place. |
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| Author: | booger [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
John Pritchett wrote: I don't think "it's here to stay" is in the best interest of the game. Obviously players and gameops have considered this a problem for awhile, and there are scripts that deal with it, so I'd like to explore ways to include those improvements in the game so every gameop can take advantage of them. ill grant you this- but how do you stop someone from surrounding fed and the msl? all im saying is its pretty easy to do... so even if you make the fed sectors 'hazproof' they can still be blocked... even without blowing up the ports and dock. i think id vote for the expanded fed area as a solution- make 10 to 1000 fed sectors where theres no haz or figs allowed. i dont know how feasible that is from a coding standpoint tho. |
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| Author: | Singularity [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
If you're going to enforce the rules, remove the penalty for it. It's impossible to know if something is in the MSLs are not early on. If you do enforce the MSLs, just make it impossible to lay figs... but no fig loss or holds loss like in fedspace. While people can surround the MSLs to get a block, it takes a lot more figs to pull that off. Edit: This could be used to find the class 0s very easy. Just surround, look for where you couldn't drop, and follow the path to the class 0s. Consider that when planning this. |
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| Author: | John Pritchett [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
@Booger, that's interesting. Maybe a setting of how many hops out from FedSpace and MSLs to include in protected space. Maybe call this the Demilitarized Zone, or DMZ. This could be an independent setting, "Depth of DMZ". So you'd have FedSpace, MSLs, and a buffer of DMZ sectors around these. I don't think that would be an issue to support. I could tag sectors during Bigbang so there would be no additional overhead during gameplay. @Sing, right, good points. I don't want to penalize, just restrict, and I think it's just a reality that this will flag where the MSLs actually are. Though it's true that we don't absolutely have to include the Class 0 ports here, just the lane between Terra and SD. |
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| Author: | Big D [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Keeping MSLs clear |
Singularity wrote: Edit: This could be used to find the class 0s very easy. Just surround, look for where you couldn't drop, and follow the path to the class 0s. Consider that when planning this. Yes, that would be the issue at hand. That's why I suggested that this only include the msl's from 1 to dock and back. That would still allow for trading in fed space and msl's if the ports still existed. It would definitely hinder blockades some long enough for new players to get a scanner, twarp, etc. |
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