View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:13 am



Reply to topic  [ 123 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
 What about gridding? 
Author Message
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am
Posts: 3150
Location: USA
Unread post What about gridding?
I'm enjoying the opportunity to explore some ways to give gameops a few more options to control gameplay. Probably the most significant tactic in the game today is gridding, as well as tactics to defend against it. I'd like to explore that a bit.

If it was possible to limit the effectiveness of gridding so that players tended to only create heavily guarded clusters of sectors around their bases, and this practice of covering a wide range of sectors with a fighter grid was not practical, how would that effect the game as it's played today? Would it allow other tactics to become just as dominant, or even more dominant? I know much of the modern game is centered around gridding and related tactics, but I've heard from many people who are not interested in games where gridding dominates.

_________________
John Pritchett
EIS
---
Help fund the TradeWars websites! If you open a hosting account with A2 Hosting, the service EIS uses for all of its sites, EIS will earn credits toward its hosting bill.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:33 pm
Profile WWW
Lieutenant Commander
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:59 pm
Posts: 782
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
you could make it where you cant leave a fig in a sector without a planet being present. thatll change gameplay dramatically tho

_________________
I was immortal, for a little while...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZY2mRG5mzg


Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:35 pm
Profile
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 5558
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
By itself, that would be giving people's bases away.
It would require a massive rebalancing of things.

Limiting grid to a topographical area is not feasible
tho. People need to spread out their bases to be safe.
Grid actually helps to defend people's bases.

What we need is a way to make gridding more expensive
as an option. The proposal for this earlier was a grid
decay rate. 20% (up to a max) of figs per sector, for
instance, decay. And if down to 1 fig, there's a 20%
chance of it going poof. People could still grid, people
could still defend their sectors and grid any sector they
want, but it would be a lot more expensive.

_________________
May the unholy fires of corbomite ignite deep within the depths of your soul...

1. TWGS server @ twgs.navhaz.com
2. The NavHaz Junction - Tradewars 2002 Scripts, Resources and Downloads
3. Open IRC chat @ irc.freenode.net:6667 #twchan
4. Parrothead wrote: Jesus wouldn't Subspace Crawl.

*** SG memorial donations via paypal to: dpocky68@booinc.com
Image


Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:40 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am
Posts: 3150
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
yeah, that's basically what I'm thinking. I don't want to do away with gridding. I want to make it more interesting, to integrate it better with the game so it's balanced "by design". I just wanted to start with the general question of, "if we decrease the power of gridding, would that improve or break the game as it's currently played?"

_________________
John Pritchett
EIS
---
Help fund the TradeWars websites! If you open a hosting account with A2 Hosting, the service EIS uses for all of its sites, EIS will earn credits toward its hosting bill.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:56 pm
Profile WWW
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 5558
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Would break the way its currently played and lead to
either widespread stalemates or quick knock-outs.

Would require some careful planning.

_________________
May the unholy fires of corbomite ignite deep within the depths of your soul...

1. TWGS server @ twgs.navhaz.com
2. The NavHaz Junction - Tradewars 2002 Scripts, Resources and Downloads
3. Open IRC chat @ irc.freenode.net:6667 #twchan
4. Parrothead wrote: Jesus wouldn't Subspace Crawl.

*** SG memorial donations via paypal to: dpocky68@booinc.com
Image


Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:03 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am
Posts: 3150
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Well, the point would be to avoid stalemates, or at least early gridlock. I believe the game was designed to favor more compact and heavily fortified bases as opposed to vast fields of fighters, so anything that restores that dynamic would be good for the game.

I definitely want to avoid games that tend to stalemate. I think one way to address that would be to introduce some end-game conditions. That's something I'd really like to do either way. I'd like to have a list of game types, like capture the flag, body count, king of the hill, or whatever. The game as it's currently played is "last man standing", and that's a game type that tends to be drawish.

_________________
John Pritchett
EIS
---
Help fund the TradeWars websites! If you open a hosting account with A2 Hosting, the service EIS uses for all of its sites, EIS will earn credits toward its hosting bill.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:24 pm
Profile WWW
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 5558
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Right. In a last-man-standing game, people naturally
hunt for enemy bases. If the game isn't balanced
right, and there's no grid, then it would be easy to
find those bases and invade them before they're
ready.

In a game that's more balanced, the bases would
have to be left to sit and develop. But that tends
to lead to a stalemate the longer they sit.

The current method of gridding is actually very
efficient with this. It creates a fast way to explore
the game, but also gives enough room for planets
to develop. It's evolved to be very balanced.

The option of disabling player photon effects will
make grid play better for those that want less of
it. People can disable that feature and move around
as needed. It's trivially easy to avoid pdrop in most
of these cases. People can lay figs then, but they
can't use grid as aggressively.

Add in the terra->dock lane clear, give people the
option of having a scanner at start, and people will
be able to get in and get around w/o being killed
immediately in a new game.

Additionally, the idea I presented earlier of being
able to close the game between certain hours would
also help. I could create a game that's open from 5pm
to 1am, and let people get a good night's sleep and
work w/o worrying about the grid.

Additionally, a grid decay rate would be nice to have.
I could leave it off for the first week, create planets
that go shielded in 5 days, and then turn on grid decay
on day 7. That would give people a way to protect
their planets while they're vulnerable, then make grid
more expensive after planets have developed.
Combined with careful planet strength changes in the
edit, and we could make bases either less or more
difficult to invade (balanced with fig capacity).

_________________
May the unholy fires of corbomite ignite deep within the depths of your soul...

1. TWGS server @ twgs.navhaz.com
2. The NavHaz Junction - Tradewars 2002 Scripts, Resources and Downloads
3. Open IRC chat @ irc.freenode.net:6667 #twchan
4. Parrothead wrote: Jesus wouldn't Subspace Crawl.

*** SG memorial donations via paypal to: dpocky68@booinc.com
Image


Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:31 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:00 am
Posts: 3141
Location: Kansas
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Singularity wrote:
Additionally, the idea I presented earlier of being
able to close the game between certain hours would
also help. I could create a game that's open from 5pm
to 1am, and let people get a good night's sleep and
work w/o worrying about the grid.


And those of us who work opposite shifts are just screwed if it is a particular edit we wish to play. It is already that way on game bangs unless they bang on a weekend.

_________________
               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."


Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:06 pm
Profile ICQ
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:00 am
Posts: 5558
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Promethius wrote:
And those of us who work opposite shifts are just screwed if it is a particular edit we wish to play. It is already that way on game bangs unless they bang on a weekend.


Which is exactly why you want this setting. As it
is now, you can't get a game except on weekends.
But with this setting, a sysop could create a game
specifically for people working other shifts and you
might actually get a decent game during the week.

_________________
May the unholy fires of corbomite ignite deep within the depths of your soul...

1. TWGS server @ twgs.navhaz.com
2. The NavHaz Junction - Tradewars 2002 Scripts, Resources and Downloads
3. Open IRC chat @ irc.freenode.net:6667 #twchan
4. Parrothead wrote: Jesus wouldn't Subspace Crawl.

*** SG memorial donations via paypal to: dpocky68@booinc.com
Image


Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:18 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Commander
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 2:00 am
Posts: 1722
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
There is a unique way of limiting the grid. It is sometimes used today.

It is called. "Turns"......2tpw ship 1000 turns a day can grid a max of 500 sectors pgridding.
This also requires a minimum of 200000 fuel which is the equivelent of 800 buydown turns and 7max gas ports. Turns are needed for the cash needed to buy the fuel as well as the upgrade gas.

IF I have a good grid to defend my base then you will need some serious resources to find my base.

Probes are available at dock for those whom can use this tool.


I think the people your talking too want too want to find and kill the enemy without putting in the time.

For example in one of the Builder games currently running the grid limit is 500. I found a weak corp with a lot of planets right away due to lack of grid. Invasion Killing and Taking of their Planets went very quickly AFTER I found them and I found them so quickly do to LACK of grid. SO our little Late to the party Corp went from Last Place to "So far ahead" we cant be caught in a short time.

This was a small grid game with disproportionate amount of Planets per sector vs players on Corp. A Small grid is designed into the game to even the scripters advantage and give weaker players a chance etc. The Pretense is False. All it does is keep the game open for people to start late and move around without detection. If the sysop wanted to really give weaker corps a chance to defend themselves he would allow a 3 or 4 thousand grid instead of 500.

Grid means ports...Ports mean cash. ports to sell product. ports to megarob. grid means protection.
Most of this game depends on grid and should.

So unless you can come up with a tool to limit grid size by preventing me from dropping figs in new sectors once a limit is reached (say 2 to 4 thousand in a builder game) and do so without bogging down the game I don't see how you can reach a goal of limiting grid and maintaining any kind of balance.

Grid Decay is Script Heaven.
So I wont even go into how this gives the custom scripter a huge advantage.

It comes down to game skill and scripts...Whether there is grid or not the Skilled player will be more efficient with his turns. He will find his opponent and kill him. He will be better at invading etc.
The Smaller the GRID the MORE the skilled player and scripter has the ADVANTAGE.

Server side scripts or some sort of extension to extern to Clear Alien sectors of Player figs and Planets might be helpful in a capture the flag game.

Turning off foton just makes it easier to find the other guys base. Sysops have always had that option so I don't know what that is all about.

Creating More "MSL"s that get cleared.....maybe 2 more Class0's with the additional lanes might open up the game some.

_________________
Coconut Telegraph (ICQ)#586137616
Team Speak3@ 220.244.125.70:9987
Founding Member -=[Team Kraaken]=- Winner of Gridwars 2010 - Ka Pla
Image
Jesus wounldn't Subspace Crawl


Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:28 pm
Profile ICQ YIM
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:06 pm
Posts: 2059
Location: Oklahoma
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
Parrothead wrote:
For example in one of the Builder games currently running the grid limit is 500. I found a weak corp with a lot of planets right away due to lack of grid. Invasion Killing and Taking of their Planets went very quickly AFTER I found them and I found them so quickly do to LACK of grid. SO our little Late to the party Corp went from Last Place to "So far ahead" we cant be caught in a short time.


Actually your Corporate lead is based on your corp capping the alien planet. But yes you are currently in the lead :)
Good job. http://toyland-twgs.com/pages/game_scores.html

_________________
T0yman (Permanently Retired since 2012)
Proverbs 17:28 <-- Don't know it, most should it would stop a lot of the discussions on here.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:49 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am
Posts: 3150
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
@Sing, I think this illustrates two other ways that the game has deviated from the original design. It may not be possible to correct these, but I'd like to at least consider the possibility.

1) Early base defense is supposed to be provided by the Tholian Sentinel. The Sentinel was meant to be planet defense until a planet has its own defenses. But I know the Tholian doesn't live up to that role. Would it be possible to make the Tholian a more effective tool at this stage in the game?

2) It was never supposed to be so easy to locate a person's base. What are the tactics used at this stage of the game to pinpoint a player's location? Is it just the fact that you have unlimited turns and you can explore the entire universe in a short time? Or is it because of ztm? Scanning CIM reports? By design, the only way to find a player's base this early in the game was supposed to be Limpets or luck. It shouldn't be necessary to grid because you should have a period of peace just because the universe is a large place. In fact, gridding and having a large "footprint" would only give away your position sooner. Finding a nice backwater tunnel and building up a nice base in a few sectors would be the best way to avoid attracting too much attention too early. Of course, with ztm, sitting in a dead-end is the surest way to attract attention.

I think addressing these issues would go a long way toward making gridding a less important part of the game.

@Parrothead, so what you're saying is counterintuitive and definitely goes against the intended design. Are you saying that having a larger grid gives you more of a heads up when someone finds you? Why is it so easy to find someone when they have a small grid? It didn't used to be this way. The fact that a corp can't build up a decent base before being located and attacked is definitely a deviation from intended design. Or is that even what you're saying? Are you saying that the grid is key to defending the base even if it has had plenty of time to be fortified?

Placing fighters to establish a zone of control was definitely part of the intended design. Placing figs in every sector of the game and locking it down so nobody can move was not an expected tactic and it is one that has turned a lot of people off to this game. That's what I'd like to address here, to come up with some options for gameops who want to provide games that don't have this kind of dynamic. And I know some ops do so with special rules and with scripts. I'd just like to provide a way to do it within the game so every gameop has the ability to support that kind of game, not just the veterans with their bags of tricks.

_________________
John Pritchett
EIS
---
Help fund the TradeWars websites! If you open a hosting account with A2 Hosting, the service EIS uses for all of its sites, EIS will earn credits toward its hosting bill.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:14 pm
Profile WWW
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:06 pm
Posts: 2059
Location: Oklahoma
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
John, the game PH is referring to is on my server. Since you can't have more than 500 sectors figged and I disabled probes & limpets so it forces people to go looking. I also run a sweeper script for clearing MSL's and 4 sectors out from dock, clear mines, more than 1 fig, navhaz & planets. And there are only a small amount of large bubbles so it was easy to find the weakest target and take that area over. If someone would have built in tunnels or small DE's it would not have been worth the effort to find them and invade since it is a building game. Probably a mistake on my part having big bubbles but invasions are typically rare in this game. Whoops!

_________________
T0yman (Permanently Retired since 2012)
Proverbs 17:28 <-- Don't know it, most should it would stop a lot of the discussions on here.


Last edited by T0yman on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:31 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am
Posts: 3150
Location: USA
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
T0yman, thanks for clarifying. But I have definitely been hearing that it's very easy for experienced players to locate someone, even in a 30K universe, and I think regardless of map structure. I've learned some about what these tactics are, but there are many things in today's game that I just don't have a strong grasp of, and it makes it hard for me to project what would be an improvement and what would just mess things up more. The best way for me to learn is to ask questions of the experienced players, and to study what ops like Thrawn and Vger are doing and have been doing for years now to address player's concerns.

When you say you're limiting gridding to 500 sectors, is that just a rule? How do you enforce it? I'm really just looking for tools I can add to the game to enable ops like you to experiment with game styles without having to fall back on rules of conduct, scripts, or an enormous amount of personal attention to keep a game on track.

_________________
John Pritchett
EIS
---
Help fund the TradeWars websites! If you open a hosting account with A2 Hosting, the service EIS uses for all of its sites, EIS will earn credits toward its hosting bill.


Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:43 pm
Profile WWW
Veteran Op
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:06 pm
Posts: 2059
Location: Oklahoma
Unread post Re: What about gridding?
John Pritchett wrote:
When you say you're limiting gridding to 500 sectors, is that just a rule? How do you enforce it? I'm really just looking for tools I can add to the game to enable ops like you to experiment with game styles without having to fall back on rules of conduct, scripts, or an enormous amount of personal attention to keep a game on track.


I run a fig sweeper usually once in a 24 hour period, but when it run it adds them up and and if over it deletes random sectors, so if you go over you risk losing a gate or possible millions of figs. I also run a script for sweeping MSL's, 4 sectors from dock is kept clear of Haz, Figs, Mines and planets. That Fed Sweeper script runs randomly 24 hours a day... might be 2 minutes might be an hour. You move a planet into one of the marked sectors you risk losing it, when the script runs it disables the planet and I have repo'd a few :) (always makes me smile reading the email)
I have found rules and TW players do not usually go hand in hand we tend to stretch the rules to the limit. So having tools in place helps but of course it is not 100%. I would like to see some of these options built in to the server, but building games are definitely the minority compared to most games, but they usually have the most new players.

_________________
T0yman (Permanently Retired since 2012)
Proverbs 17:28 <-- Don't know it, most should it would stop a lot of the discussions on here.


Last edited by T0yman on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:51 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 123 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.