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Big D
Veteran Op
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:04 pm Posts: 5025
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Re: TW high score list
It's not the ingame CLV causing a problem, and using a CIM Hunter is almost impossible to use unless it's very early in the game and the killer has a very small list of ports in his database but the ports are in strategic areas such as all sectors 2 or 3 hops from the dock or fed space. Once the hunters list of ports is too large, it's almost impossible to CIM hunt anyone effectively. I do think the "High Scores" display should be put on an update delay however. As far as the # display, that only shows if a player changes enough to get promoted or demoted. That really isn't much of a reason to waste a time penalty logging in to find out all they did was bust up or upgrade a port.
Besides, the ingame CLV display and the # display require the player to be logged into the game, and I don't care what Vid says, IRC communication for the purpose of watching ingame activity isn't very effective and full of potential issues. It won't be near as easy or effective to use that method as it is to squat at the "High Scores" screen.
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:27 pm |
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Vid Kid
Commander
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 1837 Location: Guam USA
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Re: TW high score list
I think Cruncher is right , sounds like these changes are things to change in the v4 versions.
They have been like this since the beginning , they should stay till its a new ADD everything under sun version v4.
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:59 pm |
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John Pritchett
Site Admin
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am Posts: 3150 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
Yeah, the main point of this change is to make sure there's a cost associated with gathering info, not to make it impossible to gather info.
I will continue to get feedback from people about how much of an issue CIM hunting is, as well as other areas of concern, and make changes where I feel it has a strong chance of improving the situation. I'd like to get some rankings of what people consider to be their top five problems with the game, maybe get a consensus on where to focus the limited time and effort I will have for the game in the near future.
And I don't agree about the line between v3 options and v4 changes. If I can do something with an option toggle, I'm willing to do that in v3. The v4 changes I have in mind are major changes, like internal automation, a flat 2D map, and a set of victory conditions like capture the flag, body count, king of the hill, etc. Those are major changes. Putting a delay on a high score list is not a major change, and it's no different than 100s of things I've done with this game over the years. It's a correction.
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:01 pm |
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Cruncher
Ambassador
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 4016 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
Vid Kid wrote: I think Cruncher is right , sounds like these changes are things to change in the v4 versions.
They have been like this since the beginning , they should stay till its a new ADD everything under sun version v4. No, I like the high score list delay. I was referring to banking corp turns as a later development for v4.xx Sorry Vid.
_________________
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:13 pm |
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Promethius
Ambassador
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:00 am Posts: 3141 Location: Kansas
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Re: TW high score list
T0yman wrote: You used the word "ethics" on a Trade Wars forum.... lol lol, very true. Even one or two things I wouldn't do in a game.
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"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:51 pm |
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Promethius
Ambassador
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:00 am Posts: 3141 Location: Kansas
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Re: TW high score list
John Pritchett wrote: The fact that things like CLV and port reports can be used to gather information about player activity when they were never intended to be used this way is a flaw in the design, and it's a choice between fixing the flaws or letting the game remain broken. I don't want to change much, and what I do will be optional, but if it's possible to make a minor change like delaying CLV updates to remove a tactic that is detrimental to gameplay, then I'll do it. Then there won't be a question about whether or not it's cheating because the game simply won't allow it. CLV use is also somewhat of a competition in regard to whose cashing script is faster (alignment changes), and who might be getting ready to jump into an attack ship based on their alignment and the credits they have earned. In an unim you need to know the relative capability of your opponent and CLV provides that along with what will happen if you attack (getting flipped). CLV information is available to all players and I never used a script for that purpose. I don't see CLV use as hindering the game, but rather helping players.
_________________
/ Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /
"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:03 am |
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the reverend
Gameop
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 886 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
John Pritchett wrote: Quote: So what prevents a player from leaving a corp to get around these limitations, and then re-joining the corp? I agree with Rem0te, it would take some additional rules on how you interact with Corps. What are the "legitimate" reasons for leaving and rejoining a Corp? Would there be a problem with a Corp being a more rigid entity in some games? Once you're in a Corp, you're in the Corp until you leave or are booted, and then you can't rejoin for a specified time if at all? There are many shenanigans related to Corps these days. one 'legitimate' reason to leave your corp (temporarily) is to keep your corpies from losing exp at extern due to your extreme alignment. after extern, if the alignment rules permit, you can rejoin the corp. whether this is legitimate is clearly debatable, but the game allows it.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:42 am |
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the reverend
Gameop
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 886 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
John Pritchett wrote: I don't see a problem with a Promote option so you don't have to shuffle players around by quitting and rejoining. There have been ways to circumvent Corp rules forever, like having both Reds and Blues on the same Corp when the game clearly means for Corps to be a single alignment. not to belabor the point, but if the intention of the game design was to enforce corps to be a single alignment, it would not have implemented penalties for having mixed alignments on the corp. the fact that you lose exp at extern for mixed corps is evidence that mixed corps are part of the design and that any advantages gained from being mixed were to be balanced at extern. i suppose it could be argued either way, but clearly the game design recognizes that there are advantages to being mixed.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:47 am |
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the reverend
Gameop
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 886 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
so here is my 2c.
i like the idea of having stale information available outside the game to rebalance time limit script workarounds. any of the options that JP proposes would be welcome in this regard. the fact that they are optional is an excellent olive branch to those opposed.
once logged into the game, i think it is a mistake to withhold live data from players. i consider CLV monitoring a valid part of the game, especially when you're trying to make decisions about whether to attack a player - you need to know what ship they are in and what their alignment is.
as far as CIM hunting, i think it is of very limited usefulness in the lifetime of a game and i thing we're jumping at ghosts to try to remedy that.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:01 pm |
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John Pritchett
Site Admin
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:00 am Posts: 3150 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
Thanks for the fresh perspective, Rev. I'm with you on most of that. I do think that while the game didn't specifically prohibit mixed corps, the penalty that it attempted to provide is easily circumvented, and therefore the spirit of the design is not currently met. By making (optionally) a "static corps" rule, you could still have mixed corps, you just couldn't break up and then reform the corp at extern to avoid the penalty. Teams would be forced to decide whether or not a mixed corp is worthwhile, taking into account the penalty, and it would be possible to restore balance.
I'm not sure if CIM hunting is the primary method of finding bases and players, but clearly there is a way that today's players are more able to track down players and bases than before, and this has made the fighter grid a necessary counter. Sing has said many times that if you take away the ability to grid (a tactic I think has a negative impact on the game), you break the balance because it's too easy for teams to find and attack your base. If not CIM hunting, how is this being done? I would rather see games where you focus your strength on defending your base and not on placing a grid in every sector of the galaxy.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:26 pm |
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Singularity
Veteran Op
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:00 am Posts: 5558 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
John Pritchett wrote: Thanks for the fresh perspective, Rev. I'm with you on most of that. I do think that while the game didn't specifically prohibit mixed corps, the penalty that it attempted to provide is easily circumvented, and therefore the spirit of the design is not currently met. This really depends heavily on the game. For the first few days in a gold setup, that experience hit can really hurt. Quote: Sing has said many times that if you take away the ability to grid (a tactic I think has a negative impact on the game), you break the balance because it's too easy for teams to find and attack your base. Grid defense, not grid, balances the exploration. Defense is using ptorps and the like. The ability to grid becomes grid defense later on, hence why it's important to have figs around the uni to act as watchdogs. John Pritchett wrote: If not CIM hunting, how is this being done? I would rather see games where you focus your strength on defending your base and not on placing a grid in every sector of the galaxy. Very skilled data mining and an understanding of turn efficient search patterns. Ex: Lets say you find an area with an upgraded fuel port, well why upgrade a port in the middle of no where? To gas mobile planet, that's why. Where'd those mobiles come from? Not hard to figure out the most probable sector types and hit them in order of distance. Ex 2: Person runs a passive gridder (walks around, hits no enemy figs) to drop figs. But they run the script from a critical area, and it leaves a chain of figs. You follow the chain right to an enemy base or port... happens a lot. Just to name a few...
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:56 pm |
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the reverend
Gameop
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 886 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
John Pritchett wrote: Thanks for the fresh perspective, Rev. I'm with you on most of that. I do think that while the game didn't specifically prohibit mixed corps, the penalty that it attempted to provide is easily circumvented, and therefore the spirit of the design is not currently met. By making (optionally) a "static corps" rule, you could still have mixed corps, you just couldn't break up and then reform the corp at extern to avoid the penalty. Teams would be forced to decide whether or not a mixed corp is worthwhile, taking into account the penalty, and it would be possible to restore balance.
I'm not sure if CIM hunting is the primary method of finding bases and players, but clearly there is a way that today's players are more able to track down players and bases than before, and this has made the fighter grid a necessary counter. Sing has said many times that if you take away the ability to grid (a tactic I think has a negative impact on the game), you break the balance because it's too easy for teams to find and attack your base. If not CIM hunting, how is this being done? I would rather see games where you focus your strength on defending your base and not on placing a grid in every sector of the galaxy. i agree that penalties are being avoided too easily. i like the static corp idea as long as you provide mechanisms for promoting players to CEO. perhaps a multi-day lockout could be a a reasonable penalty for players who leave the corp and want to rejoin. i thought of another good reason to leave a corp - so that your teammate can kill you for various exp, bounty, and alignment reasons. on the first night of tournament play it is common to have all blue teammates post bounty (to get commissions) on a red teammate and recoup the bounty before extern by killing our own teammate who would rejoin the corp after extern. that may be considered outside the intent of the game design, i don't know. it's handy though. if not for gridding, cim hunting would have an enormous impact. if figs are not deployed in a sector, players running a cim hunter script would see the change in port quantities and deduce that someone just traded there and thus the hunt would be on. with gridding, cim hunting only tells you that the port was just covered with a fig - you can take action on that information immediately, but if you don't, or fail, then the port will remain covered and you will get no further data from it. once the game is sufficiently advanced in terms of grid, cim hunting tells you mainly about ports with your figs on them, which is pretty much meaningless offensively. if someone is attacking your grid, you are handicapped if you're running a cim hunter because the fig attack notifications are much more useful and timely. all that to say, removing gridding makes cim hunting very powerful.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:03 pm |
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the reverend
Gameop
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 886 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
p.s. i was just thinking. what if the extern exp penalty was not applied at extern. what if there was a penalty across the board for exp gain, so that in a mixed corp you gain exp 20% slower, or something like that. or maybe the 20% was N% where N is some ratio of how severely mixed the corp is. that way you couldn't avoid the penalty just by leaving the corp for 5 minutes and the penalty could be more severe for big offenders.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:11 pm |
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rem0te
1st Sergeant
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 9:20 am Posts: 45
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Re: TW high score list
the reverend wrote: p.s. i was just thinking. what if the extern exp penalty was not applied at extern. what if there was a penalty across the board for exp gain, so that in a mixed corp you gain exp 20% slower, or something like that. or maybe the 20% was N% where N is some ratio of how severely mixed the corp is. that way you couldn't avoid the penalty just by leaving the corp for 5 minutes and the penalty could be more severe for big offenders. Thats a good idea. A lot of exploit are based around extern. Wonder if the game would feel too different if everything that happen in extern where handled in a different way.
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:52 pm |
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Cruncher
Ambassador
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:00 am Posts: 4016 Location: USA
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Re: TW high score list
the reverend wrote: not to belabor the point, but if the intention of the game design was to enforce corps to be a single alignment, it would not have implemented penalties for having mixed alignments on the corp. the fact that you lose exp at extern for mixed corps is evidence that mixed corps are part of the design and that any advantages gained from being mixed were to be balanced at extern. i suppose it could be argued either way, but clearly the game design recognizes that there are advantages to being mixed. Before Mega rob was known, we would never run a mixed corp because reds need experience to rob. Then it became common place for teams to megacorp.. lots of servers had specific rules for team sizes, your team could consist of red and blue players but no more than 6 players on a team, and corp limit was 6 so you could run any combination, and the corp team names had to be similar so you could easily identify the red/blue teams. Mega corping and sharing assets was logistically challenging. Today's mixed corp is very easy to play, more so with mega rob as a "feature" of MBBS mode. So, once upon a time the experience penalty made sense, now it's just manipulated so everyone on a mixed corp drops to 0 exp at extern, keeping the blue players fed safe. This game is MUCH easier to play than it once was by the simple act of turning a bug into a "feature".
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Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:06 pm |
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