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 twgs beta 
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Vulcan wrote:
As for what I like about the current version, it works and has a proven track record, despite the bugs that are still in it, bugs that the newer version should have gone in it, [...] but I do think the old version should have had its bugs fixed first, but I am not going to cry about that,


There that's part of what's confusing me - the new version sounds pretty much the same as the old version, except with the bugs removed and more sysop control added. I guess maybe that's what you mean, is you'd liked to have seen the bug fixes implemented before the enhancements to the server side... and yeah maybe you have a point but fixing bugs is not very motivating to developers... at least for me, I find it difficult to sit down and start working just to fix some boring bugs. I'd rather fix the bugs while doing the enhancements, even though that's generally considered bad practice.

Vulcan wrote:
I think mostly the people that don't like the change may have to do with not being able to use those bugs to have an edge in game play anymore,


Oh. Well, that kind of thing is always a problem for experienced players, isn't it. You spend a ridiculous amount of time getting ridiculously good at a game, then people stop playing it because the sequel comes out. That's life.

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Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:39 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
If I was charging an upgrade for the new version, I'd agree that fixing the bugs in the older version would make sense. But this is a free upgrade. And it isn't my goal to change anything without providing controls over that. So if you run TWGS v2 out of the box, it should be very much like TWGS v1. So there shouldn't be any reason to run the older version. Unless you just prefer to drop the entire server to add a new game, or you like deleting the mail file every few days after it explodes to 2 gig, or you prefer to allow your players to peg your CPU to 100% at their whim.

The only reason to run the older version is because of bugs that exist on that version that have been fixed for the new one. That's nothing new, and there's nothing wrong with that. People have always enjoyed various versions of the game for the bugs unique to those versions. But as a gameop, you should be aware that your players may prefer the earlier version because it gives you less control and gives them more. If you only care to accommodate those players, then stick with TWGS v1.03. But if you hope to attract any new players, you might not want the existing players to have the unfair advantage of private, secret bug lists.

So to summarize, TWGS v2 should not take anything away from TWGS v1. If it does, tell me and I'll address it. TWGS v2 should not break any player's scripts. If it does, tell me so I can fix it if possible. If TWGS v2 introduces any new bugs, report them to me and I'll fix them. Since v2 is under source control, and has been throughout this dev cycle, it will be much easier for me to jump in, fix a bug and release an update well into the future. With TWGS v1.03, I got to a point where it would take me weeks to get to the point where I could make a small fix and release an update, and that's why bug releases stopped for awhile. I intend to support this version long after I'm busy with other projects (which I basically am already). So if TWGS v2 fails to meet my goal of being TWGS v1 with enhancements, work with me to achieve that goal.

But even if I do achieve that goal, there will still be players who prefer to run the older version as-is. In fact, even if I fixed the bugs in TWGS v1.03 and released TWGS v1.04 before moving on to TWGS v2, those players would still prefer TWGS v1.03.

Oh, on the point of speeding up movement, I actually won't be doing that in TWGS v2.14. It is coming, but I just want to get this out asap while I have a window of time to work on it here. I do want to provide more flexibility on setting the speed of movement, as long as gameops understand that anything under the recommended 250 ms/move is "overclocking" and may cause instability. My biggest concern for allowing it right now is the fact that anyone who chooses to run faster moves will no longer be able to provide me with reliable bug reports, because I can't tell to what extent those fast moves are causing the bugs, either directly or indirectly through data corruption, etc. But you know, 250 ms/move is the speed that TWGS v1.03 runs at, so I don't understand all the fuss.

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:42 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Kaus wrote:
I read the changes, I don't know what all the fuss is about. It doesnt appear John has removed or added anything ground breaking that isnt sysop configurable.


From what I understand, the fuss is about the optional changes
potentially creating new bugs. The crowd that is complaining
the most hold that every time JP changes the TWGS code in one
place, it breaks something in another place. They claim that this
is how new bugs are created.

The problem with this tale is that none of these new bugs have
surfaced in the ongoing beta testing.

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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
John Pritchett wrote:
If I was charging an upgrade for the new version, I'd agree that fixing the bugs in the older version would make sense. But this is a free upgrade. And it isn't my goal to change anything without providing controls over that. So if you run TWGS v2 out of the box, it should be very much like TWGS v1. So there shouldn't be any reason to run the older version. Unless you just prefer to drop the entire server to add a new game, or you like deleting the mail file every few days after it explodes to 2 gig, or you prefer to allow your players to peg your CPU to 100% at their whim.

The only reason to run the older version is because of bugs that exist on that version that have been fixed for the new one. That's nothing new, and there's nothing wrong with that. People have always enjoyed various versions of the game for the bugs unique to those versions. But as a gameop, you should be aware that your players may prefer the earlier version because it gives you less control and gives them more. If you only care to accommodate those players, then stick with TWGS v1.03. But if you hope to attract any new players, you might not want the existing players to have the unfair advantage of private, secret bug lists.

So to summarize, TWGS v2 should not take anything away from TWGS v1. If it does, tell me and I'll address it. TWGS v2 should not break any player's scripts. If it does, tell me so I can fix it if possible. If TWGS v2 introduces any new bugs, report them to me and I'll fix them. Since v2 is under source control, and has been throughout this dev cycle, it will be much easier for me to jump in, fix a bug and release an update well into the future. With TWGS v1.03, I got to a point where it would take me weeks to get to the point where I could make a small fix and release an update, and that's why bug releases stopped for awhile. I intend to support this version long after I'm busy with other projects (which I basically am already). So if TWGS v2 fails to meet my goal of being TWGS v1 with enhancements, work with me to achieve that goal.

But even if I do achieve that goal, there will still be players who prefer to run the older version as-is. In fact, even if I fixed the bugs in TWGS v1.03 and released TWGS v1.04 before moving on to TWGS v2, those players would still prefer TWGS v1.03.

Oh, on the point of speeding up movement, I actually won't be doing that in TWGS v2.14. It is coming, but I just want to get this out asap while I have a window of time to work on it here. I do want to provide more flexibility on setting the speed of movement, as long as gameops understand that anything under the recommended 250 ms/move is "overclocking" and may cause instability. My biggest concern for allowing it right now is the fact that anyone who chooses to run faster moves will no longer be able to provide me with reliable bug reports, because I can't tell to what extent those fast moves are causing the bugs, either directly or indirectly through data corruption, etc. But you know, 250 ms/move is the speed that TWGS v1.03 runs at, so I don't understand all the fuss.



Thanks JP on the better info, like I said I do still like the old version, but with the changes in the new one and one change you made and I happened to find on a quirk, when some alien ship data corrupted the TWGS saw it then gave me an option to fix it, that wasn't there before, I like that option and the ones you listed as well. Those slipped my mind at the time, talk about brain freeze, I so do like the ability to rebang a game without having to take the tWGS offline, and the fix to the mail.dat as well. Those two things do make life easier as a sysop, knowing you don't have to go through the game every few days and delete the mail.dat and keeping current games running while you rebang a game that needs it, but there are still the players out there that want to keep on playing on the old one, it is hard to force them to play the new TWGS, I know that what you are doing is for the better for the TWGS, I agree that things have to move forward, and so far from my personal tests I am pleased at how the new TWGS runs and works.

Oh yeah, I also like the ticker tape you added to it as well, it lets a sysop notice some things in the games at a glance without having to actually access anything to see it. Thanks.

As to the others questions and doubts, so far the players I had to test my v2 TWGS have had no real issues with their scripts working or not on it, the only Issues I have had were from the sysops end, some of the server side scripts act wonky on it, and I know they have to be tweaked or some parts rewritten, but to me that is something I can live with, I talked to Vid on it a little and know he has rewritten some of his sysop tools to work with it, so no big deal, I would figure that the sysops would be the ones to complain because their scripts would be affected the most, but it seems as a concensus that we as sysops in general, really don't mind the changes on our end, and some of the TWGS changes actually are a benifit to us as well.

Just my take on it, I know I would have like to have seen the bugs fixed in the old version, but I look at it like this, if the new version fixed those bugs and doesn't introduce any new ones, then I am for it, if there are new bugs I would like to know what they are so I can work on what rules I have to use on he TWGS to prevent players from cheating, as we did with the old version.

If I hear of or see a but in my TWGS I will report them, because to me I want to make it bug free and be able to have a product I can let my players play on with no issues. I see it this way, if it gets reported then it can get fixed.

I know I like the old version for this one reason, we know the bugs in it, and can make rules against their uses, but come on if we get a new version that has those fixed, isn't it worth it?

Sure the new version may introduce new bugs, but that is the way of things, I haven't never seen a game that is fully bug free, even the game I play onlnie outside of TW EVE Online has quite a few bugs in it, they get fixed sometimes but usually get fixed when the release a new version of it every so often. Even Windows has bugs in it, no matter which Windows O/S you use there are bugs in it that act up from time to time, why do you think you get that BSOD from time to time, even Linux and MAC's O/S's have bugs in them. That is a part of progamming. You will have bugs somewhere, some how. That is the nature of things. Sometimes the bugs show, sometimes they don't.

If the game can be improved for the players to be able to enjoy a game and makes the sysops life a little easier, I am for it, then all should be happy, and al good.

We as a community should work on helping make the game get better and more viable for the players to play on, instead of belly aching and moaning about the change to things, as I said even with the big time games that most pay for change is always going to happen, and they get their fair share of bugs from that as well.

I have had my fair share of issues as well, I won't deny it, JP and I had some real issues with each other, but we worked that out, and If I and he can overcome those, and agree that the game needs to move forward, then everyone else should be able to agree with that, because the issues being whinned about on the new version, are trivial compared to the issuse JP and I had.

Sorry for that analogy usage JP, but I want them to see that what is being cried about is no real issue, compared to that, I am really tired of the he said she said crap and letting them know there are real issues that were out there and were addressed and settled, and that the TWGS version issue is really no issue at all.

Look JP is willing to work on fixing any new issues that come up in the new version, and from what I see now, that very same version fixed issues with the old one, that alone says a lot to me, as long as he is willing to fix the issues, the problem is moot.

Yes I will continue to offer the old with the new version, because I know players can be set in their ways. But eventually you have to grow up. I have and got on with things despite of past issues and problems.

I will tell all here and now, that no one in here has had any issues worse than I had with JP, that is a fact. But we also worked those issues out, that too is a fact.

I have been biting my tongue on this bug issue on the new version for some time now, but now it is time for me to be me, and most who know me, know I usually speak my mind.

And I am really tired of our community being split over trivial things, like which TWGS we should have, and for whatever reason, we all should be glad that JP has a renewed intrest in fixing things, and if a new version does that, we as a whole community should support that. I know we all have many different personalitiies. That is life, but as a community we should come together and work it out as a whole.

Why do you think when I took the responsibility of keeping this website alive when I did? Was it for my own gain? No. Was it for JP? No. Was it to keep this community alive, when the site was crashing, failing and not working properly, due to a serious lack of site maintenance where it was hosted? Yes. I wanted to keep our community alive and keep the site maintained to keep it alive. Now that responsibility is with Eleq and JP now, and they are keeping the site up and maintained now, so I am happy with that, because to me the community is everything, it doesn't matter that our community has several different websites and forums that cater to different needs of the community, I had my own site and forums as well, but always the community as a whole came first to me.

But if all we are reduced to is I refuse to play this version or that version because I don't like it, then I am done with this community. Because it is no longer a community but a series of factions that are fractured and beyond repair.

Argueing over the TWGS version is retarded.

To the community, if I have alienated myself from you or anyone in particular, then I am sorry, that wasn't my intention. If so, then so be it. But you all do have my apology.

To JP, I am sorry for my post and disruuption of the thread and site. But I couldn't hold my tongue on this arguing back and forth issue on the TWGS, and I am sorry for bringing up our past issues for the example, I know we have worked those out, but I wanted to show these people their arguements on the TWGS is nothing, an we all should work on helping make it better, with you. Not to work against you or one another over semantics.

I will bow out of this conversation on this theread as well as all threads on all forums till I cool down.

My apoligies to everyone.

Vulcan

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:14 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
For some reason the forum double posted my last post I edited this post to remove the extra post.

Vulcan

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:14 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
HotBlack wrote:
the new version sounds pretty much the same as the old version, except with the bugs removed and more sysop control added.


The new version IS pretty much the same. The options included
make the TWGS much more configurable. The downside to this,
in my opinion, is that it makes it more complex to be a sysop. The
easy & cheap fix is to make the default settings close to TWGS v1.

I think the bug fuss is overblown, as no significant bugs have been
found to date... ( sorry, I don't count rumours of bugs, or vague
threats of doom and gloom. )


Sorry Vulcan, didn't mean to derail your rant.

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:52 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
When Old returning players have returned most of them found scripts over whelming and wanted their old game back. The players that recently split were the first ones that were telling the returning players adapt or die. JP is making changes, not all of which I agree with but they are options and I will "adapt" because I enjoy the game. For better or worse TW's is here to stay, the community will either fix itself or it will end in being 2 small groups, 1.03 & 2.13+.

The biggest thing in the sever side scripting is it requires a lot of waitfor/waiton instead of a burst of info all at one time. Because of certain options require a little time to open and you might not get the right option in the right place. I tried fixing mine and I actually found it easier to just rewrite with more added options. It was actually about 40% less lines of code :)

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:10 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
It's actually my intention that default settings match TWGSv1.03 settings, so if I've deviated from that in any significant way, let me know.

I also plan to add a presets feature to greatly simplify the creation of common game types. I know it is complicated. But it really has always been complicated. I think there are ways for me to improve that situation while still providing more options.

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Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:11 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
I have upgraded to 2.14 and didn't have any problems with the initial installation.

Microbot has detected that Vulcan has upgraded as well.

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:38 am
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Great.

Vid says that he's getting an error beep when he closes the TWGS Command Center TEDIT or Bigbang. I can't duplicate that here. Anyone else seeing (hearing) that?

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:18 am
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Not upgraded yet, but I'll do it soon and check that.

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:30 am
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
I installed on my test box, Bing Bang crashes:

Select game (Q for none): Z

Run BIGBANG for Game Z. Are you sure? [y/N]: Yes

<A> Start with current data (if any)
<B> Start with default data
<C> Migrate data from existing game

Select : B

Failed to start game session...

Connection to host lost.

I tried using the GUI and it goes black then just closes. This test was done on both New Game and a Rebang of an existing. I have tried 3 different games, no success.

EDIT1: I upgraded my main server since I like to verify things and everything on it works fine. I will delete all associated file on my other computer and reinstall fresh to check everything out. Report back later!
EDIT2: I completely removed TWGS from laptop, cleaned all registry keys and rebooted Computer. Complete reinstall, used new set of codes and I get the same result, BigBang crashes everytime. Never had this issue before. Let me know if there is something else I can test for you on my end.

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:36 am
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Can you run TW on an existing game? Tedit? Is it only bigbang that's crashing?

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:52 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
John Pritchett wrote:
Can you run TW on an existing game? Tedit? Is it only bigbang that's crashing?

I can run T-Edit, join and move around in an imported game, BigBang is the only issue I am having.

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Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:34 pm
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Unread post Re: twgs beta (whatever version it is now)
Okay I have been testing the Big Bang constantly, and waited an hour to start again and it finally did fail, when I did all I could to get the command line screen to come up it was blank then after a few seconds it closed on its own.

So far no issues in the Tedit.

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