View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:24 am



Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
 Should traders be allowed you use Proxies? 

Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Yes 42%  42%  [ 5 ]
No 25%  25%  [ 3 ]
Maybe 33%  33%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 12

 Should traders be allowed you use Proxies? 
Author Message
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
The primary use of a Proxy is to watch porn at work, school, or a public library. They can also be used to hide you identify, which would allow you to Dupe undetected in TradeWars.

There are supposedly "Legitimate" reasons for using a proxy. For Example, someone playing a game from work would need to use a proxy to bypass their corporate firewall.

There are also "Game Accelerators" primarily used to give you a better ping and less latency when playing First Person Shooters (FPS), but these are actually a form of Proxy and can also be used to hide you real IP address.

Although Virtual Private Servers (VPS) are not proxies, you can connect to them with Windows Remote Desktop Connection and use them to hide your real IP address.

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:20 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Commander
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:00 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Canada
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
I haven’t been playing as long as some of you, but I do know that this type of ‘cheating’ is impossible to detect and prevent.

Even if I had a friend join a game I was in, as a bot, who’s to say that I haven’t used Remotedesktop to play from their system because theyre too busy with Real-Life?

Keep in mind that this game was created way back when the Internet was realitively new, and only a few select people knew anything about the possibilities of Network Connections, and how to exploit them.

So I vote thusly: Nothing can be done about it. Vote with your feet.

_________________
----------------------------
-= QUANTUM COMPUTERS in a Nut Shell: 15 = 3 x 5 ... 48% of the time.
-= There are 10 types of people in the world: Those that understand Binary and those who do not
-= If Oil is made from Dinosaurs, and Plastic is made from Oil... are plastic Dinosaurs made from real Dinosaurs?


Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:30 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Chief Warrant Officer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:00 am
Posts: 186
Location: Virginia
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
LoneStar wrote:
I haven’t been playing as long as some of you, but I do know that this type of ‘cheating’ is impossible to detect and prevent.

Even if I had a friend join a game I was in, as a bot, who’s to say that I haven’t used Remotedesktop to play from their system because theyre too busy with Real-Life?

Keep in mind that this game was created way back when the Internet was realitively new, and only a few select people knew anything about the possibilities of Network Connections, and how to exploit them.

So I vote thusly: Nothing can be done about it. Vote with your feet.


Agree with this, for another reason (Micro, we already discussed this). There are players who are inherently disadvantaged due to their location (rural area with poor Internet access or far-flung locale), inability to gain access to high-speed Internet for financial reasons, or travel situation that may require them to use a VPS or proxy scenario. Several well-known, long-time players use VPS servers because they are located in places far from major US internet hubs. Most of these "proxy" ban lists also include VPS providers (which are not the same thing as proxies, though proxies are often hosted at these providers) and would effectively ban a number of well-respected, contributing players, including a few who have played in recent tournaments.

Also, you'll only be banning those who aren't knowledgeable enough to get around the ban. Those of us who have worked in this industry for many years and (in some cases) helped to design modern IP protocols and networks, know that there are ways to hide an IP that no reputation list will *ever* pick up on, and that will never be recognized as a proxy. So again ... this would punish the not-guilty for the offenses of the guilty, who probably will find another way regardless of what you do.

The only actual way to solve this problem is to require some sort of formalized registration that takes a credit card or something else with someone's name on it, tied to a public key crypto system that requires someone to sign in with their private key (tied to the physical registration). This still doesn't prevent someone from using someone else's credit card and creating a new identity with that name, but it would be more of a deterrent, to be sure.

But, as Lonestar suggests with his "vote with your feet" comment... servers that require such a scheme would quite likely see a decline in user activity to, well, near zero, given the current number of active players in general. Unless every server out there enforced this (which is highly unlikely and almost certain not to happen), it will never stick.

_________________
Image


Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:59 pm
Profile ICQ
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
The average person has a debit card and two or three real credit cards, so that would give them 4 accounts right there. The bottom line is that you can not stop duping... period...

Tradewars isn't the only online game plagued with bots and dupes. I personally had 21 Clash of Clan accounts running in 21 Android Virtual Machines at work before I got fired. Unfortunately I did not have a backup of my VMs, and I can only remember the passwords for 3 of them :/

I never got banned, even when Supercell started their "Fair Play Initiative" and banned thousands of players in one week. I shut down all my VMs for about a month, but they could not have detected the bot I was using anyway. It should have been obvious I was cheating though, as I had all 21 VMs running 24/7 all from the same IP address.

So the point of banning Proxies is that it is far to easy for a player to use a proxy to dupe. A trader can setup a free one in a just few minutes and have that second or third player up and running mombot. They can even use a proxy to hop right back into a server they were banned from.

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:17 am
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Chief Warrant Officer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:00 am
Posts: 186
Location: Virginia
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Micro wrote:
The average person has a debit card and two or three real credit cards, so that would give them 4 accounts right there. The bottom line is that you can not stop duping... period...


The point of the credit card is that you have to have their actual name to charge to it, and if you have multiple cards from someone with the same name being registered, then it's multiple accounts tied to one human.

Micro wrote:
So the point of banning Proxies is that it is far to easy for a player to use a proxy to dupe. A trader can setup a free one in a just few minutes and have that second or third player up and running mombot. They can even use a proxy to hop right back into a server they were banned from.


Sure. But you can only ban what you know is a proxy. And a proxy is not the same as a VPS, another computer you have access to, a piece of proxy software you get a friend to run that isn't on any proxy reputation lists... etc.

_________________
Image


Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:42 am
Profile ICQ
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Shadow wrote:
The point of the credit card is that you have to have their actual name to charge to it, and if you have multiple cards from someone with the same name being registered, then it's multiple accounts tied to one human.

Just playing devil's advocate at this point, but what if my real name is John Smith or Paul Jones?

Shadow wrote:
Sure. But you can only ban what you know is a proxy. And a proxy is not the same as a VPS, another computer you have access to, a piece of proxy software you get a friend to run that isn't on any proxy reputation lists... etc.

See, that is unfair... because you have real life friends and family... Helix Does not :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:11 am
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Lieutenant Commander
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 11:28 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Rural Indiana
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
In the end everyone who has posted here is right... There is no way to stop Duping. it is cheating, there are players who needs proxy server. myself included. Living in the sticks my internet sucks and i have used my server to play for the past couple of years..

If you ban Proxy's everyone who cheats will just start using friends and family.


Since there is no way to enforce it maybe we should drop the no dupes rule and quit kidding ourselfs. Not that im going to do that but it sounds good. lol


sk

_________________
Star Killer
USA(RETIRED)
Proud Member of Killbillies & Cloud09 Perma Corps
Loyalty Above All Else Except Honor
HHT 2015 Champs: Cloud09
2015 Lottery Tournament Winning Team Member
2016 Big Game Draft Tournament Winning Team Member
HHT 2016 Champs: Cloud09
Retired From Active Play 2017
Returned To Active Play 2018

Star Killer's Ice9 TWGS
The Sprawl V1 TWGS
Website: http://sk-twgs.com
TeamSpeak 3 Server: ts3server://sk-twgs.com
Email: starkillerstwgs@yahoo.com
ICQ: 693542389
Ice 9 V2 TWGS: SK-TWGS.COM PORT 2002
The Sprawl V1 TWGS: THESPRAWL.CA PORT 2002
Now The Fastest TWGS in the West
https://www.facebook.com/StarKillersTradeWars/


Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:02 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
If we drop the "No Dupes" rule, we may as well drop the "No Bug Use" rule.

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:42 am
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
1st Sergeant

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:00 am
Posts: 31
Location: USA
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
The inherent constraints of the game do not constitute a set of rules. A sysop should set up the rules for his own games and not every game needs to have the same rules. This is true in every game/sport I can think of.

There are cars capable of 150 mph, the speed limit is still 70, they still give tickets, and some people still speed. Honestly, TW is the only place I have ever seen where people argue that the ability to cheat is a license to do so.

Ever since I've been playing we have had elite players. A lot of them were really good people and taught many of the rest of us. Some of them were jerks and some were legitimate bullies. But just because they are good doesn't mean that a sysop should have to put up with their crap. SK is among a few people who are doing a lot for the game and I think they should continue doing it their way. Those who don't like it, screw those guys.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:06 am
Profile ICQ
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Can we do something about that speed limit thing?

To be honest I have never been as vigilant as Star Killer. I normally only do a dupe check when requested by a Trader or Gameop.

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:39 am
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:57 am
Posts: 3485
Location: Long Beach, CA
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Micro wrote:
If we drop the "No Dupes" rule, we may as well drop the "No Bug Use" rule.

The no bug rule is already ignored. ie megarob and stacking alien planets in a sector)

H

_________________
Helix
Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars.
Lest we forget
TTW TWGS v1 twgs.ddns.net:23
TTW TWGS v2 twgs.ddns.net:2002
I had to ask myself WWSGD?


Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:23 am
Profile WWW
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:00 am
Posts: 3733
Location: USA
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
I agree with Lone Star but as a sysop I voted Maybe because of people in far flung areas of the globe.

HellCat has been back, but not using that name now. He's lost the bandwidth advantage he once had, he's now in either Australia or New Zealand teaching coding for games.

Hammer typically uses a proxy in Texas I believe. Sometimes he's damned fast too!

Playing from work... as an employer I would frown heavily on that. I prefer when my players tell me they may be logging in from work, so I see their two IP's, or some players regularly travel and thus have different IP's.

I'll even allow dupes when two players in same household, typically bf/gf or father/son. I may be too trusting, but typically these duos aren't causing too much trouble or any in the game.

As for bug use.. seriously Helix, mega rob is a feature you can turn on or off. Stacking alien planets, who cares. Players have scripts that unstack and restack before and after extern.

_________________
Image
HHT 2015 Champs: Cloud09
Big Game 2016 Champs: Draft team


Classic Style Games Here:
telnet://Cruncherstw.no-ip.biz:2002

Web page from 1990's: https://web.archive.org/web/20170103155 ... adewar.htm
Blog with current server info: http://cruncherstw.blogspot.com
E-mail: Cruncherstw@gmail.com
FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/CrunchersTW


Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:42 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:57 am
Posts: 3485
Location: Long Beach, CA
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Cruncher wrote:

As for bug use.. seriously Helix, mega rob is a feature you can turn on or off. Stacking alien planets, who cares. Players have scripts that unstack and restack before and after extern.


I agree so allowing those bugs are acceptable. Thats what I said, we already allow bug use.

_________________
Helix
Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars.
Lest we forget
TTW TWGS v1 twgs.ddns.net:23
TTW TWGS v2 twgs.ddns.net:2002
I had to ask myself WWSGD?


Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:05 pm
Profile WWW
Chief Warrant Officer

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:39 pm
Posts: 186
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
If it's a huge deal I'd say no to proxies as long as I get to use a VPS, which is just another way of doing the 'proxy' :)

Playing from Perth, Australia does have a huge disadvantage. I did it since the early 00's dialing in to a BBS, and then telne'ing across the world. I did it a few years ago and was still very competitive. However I don't think I can go back now :) minimum server ping vs 600ms... mmm no thanks!!!

Guess I can still bot and supply scripts to my US friends and win that way.. even if it is basically duping despite people claiming otherwise.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:52 pm
Profile
Ambassador
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Oklahoma City, OK 73170 US
Unread post Re: Should traders be allowed you use Proxies?
Hammer_2 wrote:
If it's a huge deal I'd say no to proxies as long as I get to use a VPS, which is just another way of doing the 'proxy' :)

Playing from Perth, Australia does have a huge disadvantage. I did it since the early 00's dialing in to a BBS, and then telne'ing across the world. I did it a few years ago and was still very competitive. However I don't think I can go back now :) minimum server ping vs 600ms... mmm no thanks!!!

Guess I can still bot and supply scripts to my US friends and win that way.. even if it is basically duping despite people claiming otherwise.

Since a VPS can hide your identity, I consider it the same as a proxy for the purposes of this discussion. A VPS is unlikely to be listed as a proxy on the blacklist services though, so I don't think they can be detected. If your ISP comes up as Tom's Hosting service, then I guess that would prove you are using a VPS, but some hosting services use local ISPs and would show up as Comcrap, AT&T, etc...

So it appears that there are legitimate reasons to allow proxies (VPS, Game Accelerators, etc...), but now I am realizing there really is NO way to enforce the "No Dupes" rule. Maybe TradeWars passport IS the best solution?

_________________
Regards,
Micro

Website: http://www.microblaster.net
TWGS2.20b/TW3.34: telnet://twgs.microblaster.net:2002
TeamSpeak3: ts.microblaster.net:9987

Do not try and bend the spoon. That’s impossible.
Instead… only try to realize there is no spoon.


Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:57 pm
Profile ICQ YIM WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.