As a game op, I'd be willing to pay a little more if both versions were compatible AND I could continue to make edits. I enjoy that aspect of running a TWGS.

Just a question for clarification. Harley essentially said that one of the goals of V4 is to add in delays so that CPU and connection speed are less critical factors of game play. The examples he gave were of adding fixed / real-time delays to planet moving, transporting, taking or dropping figs, and firing photons. Using these examples, my question is if delays are added to compensate for speed differences then won't one side (the gridder or the defender) still have a distinct advantage in "corrected" speed based on how you code it? Or if they are truly balanced - will it be a random result as to who is quicker each time? Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the added delays. Or will gridding be conducted in a completely different fashion?

quote:Originally posted by typh00n

quote: I can sit outside of a sector with an enemy fighter in it, write a MACRO and assign it an F key trigger. In the macro, I warp into the sector, attack the fighter, lay down my own fighter and attempt to warp out.

95 percent of the time when I hit that F key, and my enemy is running one of the more advanced planet drop or photon scripts, I will get NAILED! That's letting the COMPUTER do the work! Therefore, your conclusion that a person who gets hit by these scripts is just too slow is seriously flawed and not based on reality at all!


you've got your own special blend of reality dude





I'm not sure what you are getting at really with this comment. I assure you the statement I made is TRUE! Why would I lie about it. I can tell you with certainty that I get nailed by someones script while entering sectors using MACROS the MAJORITY of the time!

Harley, in his response to me seemed to miss my point. The original post said that there are ways around getting nailed by scripts, and that if a person is getting nailed he's just too slow at the keys! If my COMPUTER can't type it fast enough to survive (ie MACROS execution), then clearly it's not a matter of being too slow at the keys!

With all my experience of dogging planet drop scripts I'd have to disagree with you SGO. I can use a macro to warp me into a sector, kill the fig, holo scan, and return to my sector before getting pdroped. Maybe your using to many enter key commands or something and slowing yourself down. I've done this in rather large games where "elite" (if you shall put a name to it) players are running there best scripts to pdrop. (maybe you were nailed by someone who had pre-locked on that sector).
Quick example For Zoc:
(sector#)^ma600^mf1^mcdsh(sector#) (I'm rusty, but I'm sure that will work) *With no nav or anything being in the sector*

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord

I can say from absolute personal experience that the above statement is categorically untrue!

I have a relatively fast computer and connect to the internet with an advanced Cable connection (above 1.5 million).

I can sit outside of a sector with an enemy fighter in it, write a MACRO and assign it an F key trigger. In the macro, I warp into the sector, attack the fighter, lay down my own fighter and attempt to warp out.

95 percent of the time when I hit that F key, and my enemy is running one of the more advanced planet drop or photon scripts, I will get NAILED! That's letting the COMPUTER do the work! Therefore, your conclusion that a person who gets hit by these scripts is just too slow is seriously flawed and not based on reality at all!



Well I will admit i could be wrong, lets be realistic here. Provided you have a valid macro I (and well, i am thinking the answer is you don't), but provided you do. Lets take this to geek level, you send a string of commands to the system. Now this string is in one burst so the server gets it all at one time. Now our opponent who is running a top notch pdrop gets your messages about hitting his fig. Now you have already killed his fig by time he even get the message, and should have already layed the fig, you now move back. His script is triggered to send a line to the server, you have retreated.

Now it is completely possible that you have a bad macro, etc. But computer nor connection speed have anything to do with it. If you don't believe me, do some online research. If you want I'll do the calculations for you based on dialup vs cable down to the bits.

Which indicates that as shown, and I would be happy to prove it if needed that macro as stated will beat a script. Now, perhaps a prelock delay, etc were they were already beginning to move might be a different story.

quote:
Furthermore, I've gone up against Alexio while he was running one of his "lawn mower" scripts. I've anticipated EXACTLY which sectors he will hit, and I've sat off those sectors with a photon script, and before my script could fire a photon when he enters, he's already in and out. So, evidently there are SCRIPTS that can ensure your survival, but macros (which are incredibly fast) cannot!

What is the conclusion to this? In order to compete you either have to be a very good script writer, or you have to purchase continually updated script packages!


Let me try an analogy. I have the fastest plane in the world, it goes Mach 500, I am cruising along at Mach1, and a Fighter Jet passes me at Mach2. Therefore his plane is faster than mine?

Let me try a different one. I load a gun and I aim to my left, someone passes on my right and I fire, it doesn't hit them, therefore guns can't kill people.

How about one more accurate to the situation. I set a trap for a deer by a salt lick, now I wait all day, and than notice a deer off to my left, I look over and sight in, but can't get a clean shot, when i look back a deer has come and gone from the salt lick. therefore salt licks don't work.

The morale of above is invalid data, or poorly collected data does not mean your conclusions are fact. If you study how the system works you would know why you conclusion you drew above is incorrect.

quote:
Is the existence of a CIM Data base evidence that the designers of this game intended it to be this way? I hardly think so! Otherwise, it occurs to me they would have, with the game, offered script packages for sale!

I've been playing this game since 1992, and I can assure you, scripts are NOT a "normal" part of the game, and the advanced scripting that is being utilized now is NOT something the game designers had in mind!

That, my dear friend, is the bottom line!


Well, I will start with this premise, and feel free to provide fact or proof, otherwise. CIM data is more useful to a helper than to a person looking as it scroll by. With this being the case, i can only hold that helpers and such were kept in mind by the authors. Evidence to the contrary would be happily received.

When i played in the early 90's offline helpers were available, and CIM data was downloaded and imported in. While not script like, it was still a helper.

So I guess I'll mention that this many post, and only one point has been discussed? So the rest aren't issues? Were are all the people who complain about scripts? This is the place to discuss it.

Jhereg

quote: I'm not sure what you are getting at really with this comment. I assure you the statement I made is TRUE! Why would I lie about it. I can tell you with certainty that I get nailed by someones script while entering sectors using MACROS the MAJORITY of the time!

In your original post you state that pdrop and photon scripts both nail you 95% of the time when using an enter-retreat macro. This translates into one of the following : you use a poor macro, have a piss poor connection, or only play on servers with low maxcommands settings. To get nailed 95% of the time by a direct pdrop (or photon) i think all 3 of the above would have to apply.

I'm not gonna break this down on the techie level - others can do it much better than I. I don't really think you're lying, but suffice it to say that what you're experiencing simply isn't the case for the vast majority of semi competent TW players. I'm not saying that a proper macro will dodge all photons all the time (it won't), just that your statement is far from universally true. Shrug.

Save your breath, you're wasting your time arguing. He's right and he knows it. Everyone else doesn't matter.

quote:Originally posted by Vader

Save your breath, you're wasting your time arguing. He's right and he knows it. Everyone else doesn't matter.

In a good mood this morning Vader? [:D]

I'm almost always in a good mood.

A few things to keep in mind;

Pre-Internet: Only one node and no way of preventing another player from running amock.
Post-Internet: Multiplayer game, presenting the opportunity to stop players from gridding, invading. etc etc while you play (ie. Photon scripts, Pdrops and such)

Pre-Internet: Most players did not use a helper of any kind.
Post-Internet: Not only are helpers available (and useful might i add) but the vast majority of Non-offensive scripts are available free.

There are many other differences, however i'm not going to list them all.

I beleive that with enough exposure and knowledge as to how many of these scripts "Operate", it becomes quite apparent that even if you were to provide a new player with an entire arsenal of scripts, it would still not turn him/her into some great "killer".
I think people are mis-lead as to what a script can and can't do. Many good offensive scripts can prevent other players from using turns (Off-line Photon scripts). A good data-miner may help you locate your opponent a little quicker than a manual/random search of the univerese. But there is no "Miracle" script that will Cash/Kill/Invade all the while keeping you from being podded.
There is a learning curve for new TW players, but i assure you that unless you are a complete dumb-ass, it is a fairly short one. Stick with it, don't give up. Game/Script knowledge is a exponential (sp)learning curve. The longer you stay, the faster you will learn

-Zoso

Zoso brought up an interesting point that I'd like to explore. Originally this game was single node, as he said, which meant one player in there at a time. Also, when you do the CIM data yourself it doesn't SCROLL by as it does when a script or helper is gathering the data.

I'm sure if Draconis thinks long and hard about what I just said, he'll figure out what I am getting at. CIM availability is NOT evidence of the game designers planning on people running an "attack" script.

As for my macros, they are just fine. They are quite simple to write.

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCd<

Anyway, I've been writing macros on the fly for many years. I can invade with them, attack with them, colonize, move product, and guess what I can HAGGLE with them too! Yes I said haggle!

You would think that my macro can keep me from being hit by a photon move or planet drop script, and on a good fast server they do me good often enough, but I'm telling you now, I get hit anyway, using macros to enter and exit the sector! Why this is I can only guess, however, I'm thinking that the SCRIPT the person is using has something to do with this!

I'm thinking that it's because I'm using SWATH! But, oh wait, you all chewed me out something fierce for criticizing SWATH, so I won't go there!

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord

Also, when you do the CIM data yourself it doesn't SCROLL by as it does when a script or helper is gathering the data.


I'm not sure what connection you use, I tested on four servers to make sure. I press ^r and I get a non stop stream of data using telnet. So umm....do you have something that keeps it from scrolling? I guess maybe some kind of pause setting from cn9 maybe, but in general, who the heck is gonna manually read 15000 port reports?

quote:
I'm sure if Draconis thinks long and hard about what I just said, he'll figure out what I am getting at. CIM availability is NOT evidence of the game designers planning on people running an "attack" script.


I have never said CIM data was used for attack scripts. I specified scripts.

quote:
As for my macros, they are just fine. They are quite simple to write.

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCd<

Anyway, I've been writing macros on the fly for many years. I can invade with them, attack with them, colonize, move product, and guess what I can HAGGLE with them too! Yes I said haggle!


Since you didn't list your standard settings, I'll assume Stock default, and say the reason is the macro sucks. Yes, it will get you photoned.

quote:
You would think that my macro can keep me from being hit by a photon move or planet drop script, and on a good fast server they do me good often enough, but I'm telling you now, I get hit anyway, using macros to enter and exit the sector! Why this is I can only guess, however, I'm thinking that the SCRIPT the person is using has something to do with this!

I'm thinking that it's because I'm using SWATH! But, oh wait, you all chewed me out something fierce for criticizing SWATH, so I won't go there!


Okay, here goes, I guess we do the techno Geek thing. I thin everybody here can agree there is a definite delay between hitting figs. According to the powers that be there is a default 250ms delay in move. So......here goes.

SGO is using a Pentium 100 with 16MB of RAM, on a Cable connection connecting at 40kbps. Jhereg is using a Dual Processor P4 3.4Ghz machine with 2Gb of 533Mhz RAM. He has a T1 Connection.

Jhereg is running Jhereg's Super "I'm gonna kill you" Script. SGO is adjacent to a Jhereg fig, but Jhereg doesn't know it, so has no prelocks.

SGO now spends the time to create a top macro. We assume that he is using the best settings, and the most intelligent macro. We also assume the server is at 30 commands per cycle.

SGO has CN9 = All keys, and send 1234^Ma99^Mf1^Mcd<. Now this is 14 characters (112 bits). I am ignoring all the telnet overhead. Now SGO sends the commands to the server. Now his Dialup transfers those characters in 0.002734375 seconds (assuming a perfect world). Now all 14 characters get processed during one cycle. Now, the first 5 characters arrive, and don't matter the speed, since until the server processes them, it doesn't matter what Jhereg's Super Kill SGO script is doing.

Now the server says SGO has entered sector and sends the fig hit response to Jhereg. Now Jhereg receives the message (time of transmission to reception is about the same because alot more characters and some ANSI colors in there, lets say .001 seconds to give Jhereg the advantage. Now I have heard the number is roughly 130ms to process and send the "fig hit" message on the server. Now, Jhereg's script has to realize what happened, and process what it needs to do. It needs to send p1234^M which is 5 characters. Now Jhereg has to send those and it takes 8.13802083e-8 seconds to send that to Jhereg. Now Jhereg arrives in sector with some additional server delay. So...

SGO has already begun his move out by this point, and IG cannot help him. Now if Jhereg was trying to photon he would have had to calculate near fig, additional commands, etc.

So my question is how does 40kbps vs 1.5Mbps really play into this? It is primarily in the reception of the fig hits, and dependent on whatelse is using system resources, bandwidth, etc. The server takes much more time to process request than any comparison of time. Now I know that K3 plays on a modem, yet he seems pretty darn good at what he does. I've photoned him maybe once or twice. But I have photoned people who are using gridders and cable much more.

Now my point is, the script is not some super device. it is bound by the rules of science. It can't go back in time to get extra time to do something. I'm sure JP could give you exact server calculation times, I never cared to figure it out. Considering I know i have taught people to use macros to avoid photons, and pdrops, I know it can be done.

Now in the above situation if I had a prelock, good chance you could have been hit, with random internet lag, etc, because no calculations, and lock was already engaged.



[/quote]

quote:Originally posted by Draconis

I have never said CIM data was used for attack scripts. I specified scripts.

No, but I thought the topic of discussion here was whether or not "scripts" are unbalancing the game! I don't see how running a "trade" script would unbalance the game and making it harder for non scripters to compete! It's the attack scripts primarily that are locking the "non scripters" out of the game early!

Furthermore, your first post mentions specifically that people who complain about dying on a script are just "too slow" at the keys. Thus, by this, the subject matter of the discussion is inherently "attack scripts" because I never got killed once by someone's trade or sst script

Incidentally, why would you HAVE to read all the CIM data? I can skim my CIM data in a matter of seconds and determine all the useful information I need from it in that time, and yes, I have my helper and the game settings set up to pause while running CIM. In fact, I rarely USE my SWATH to process CIM because it doesn't work very well. I analyze my CIM data the way I've always done it, I skim it, and I use the back scroll.

Yes, someone who's got great scripts that analyze the CIM data for them, then execute the trading or stealing, or robbing, based on that information at "macro" speed are going to out resource me in a manner of minutes! Yet, are they really playing the game? I don't think so. Their software programs are playing the game and they haven't proved their skills above mine. IN FACT, if they ever had to go up against me without their scripts and helpers they'd get toasted because they cannot analyze CIM for themselves.

This is a very logical argument, and frankly, it's irrefutable!

quote:quote:
As for my macros, they are just fine. They are quite simple to write.

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCd<


Since you didn't list your standard settings, I'll assume Stock default, and say the reason is the macro sucks. Yes, it will get you photoned.

Ok, I'll bite! Evidently you've come up with a "super" macro and a way to bypass the game's requirement that after you type in a sector number you have to hit the return key (ok well, not always of course, but my example was assuming you are warping to a sector that requires a return key, there are instances when it doesn't). Anyway, the above macro includes the BARE minimum characters, they are the commands required to execute the action if you were typing it manually. Now, if there is some way to "trick" the game, and type in less characters using a macro than a player is required to type when executing manually, well, then this sounds like something that I need to learn! It gives the macro user an even bigger advantage that the player who is executing using keys.

Shrug.

Tell me, step by step, what is wrong with my macro example, because NOW you have my attention!

(incidentally, using the asterisk in place of ^m is an affectation of SCRIPTING, when the command is executed, it sends the "return" key which is what ^m sends in straight Macro, there is no difference and the ^m does NOT count as two characters, but only one).

quote:
quote:quote:
As for my macros, they are just fine. They are quite simple to write.

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCd<


Since you didn't list your standard settings, I'll assume Stock default, and say the reason is the macro sucks. Yes, it will get you photoned.

Ok, I'll bite! Evidently you've come up with a "super" macro and a way to bypass the game's requirement that after you type in a sector number you have to hit the return key (ok well, not always of course, but my example was assuming you are warping to a sector that requires a return key, there are instances when it doesn't). Anyway, the above macro includes the BARE minimum characters, they are the commands required to execute the action if you were typing it manually. Now, if there is some way to "trick" the game, and type in less characters using a macro than a player is required to type when executing manually, well, then this sounds like something that I need to learn! It gives the macro user an even bigger advantage that the player who is executing using keys.

Shrug.

Tell me, step by step, what is wrong with my macro example, because NOW you have my attention!

(incidentally, using the asterisk in place of ^m is an affectation of SCRIPTING, when the command is executed, it sends the "return" key which is what ^m sends in straight Macro, there is no difference and the ^m does NOT count as two characters, but only one).





he is trying to say that you need to add spaces to your macro to abort the displays... you really should do some research SGO you wouldn't incur nearly as much berating from others and only lose half of the arguements you get in, instead of all of them.

ok.. ive read every post and ill reply here to sgo.
i am guessing you have CN2=Yes because you love your ansi's
also you are not aborting displays as rick said.
i would use:
"1234^m a999^m f1^mcd < "
now of course i scan the sector before to make sure there are no mines or haz or beacons and such.
if i use that macro, i will almost never get hit unless they are expecting it.
now refering to not being able to hit alexio with your ptorp. well, there are a few things you need to take into account.
1)are you using a good anticipate photon? how are you setting it up? how many warps out are you anticipating?
2)is he safe gridding, or blind gridding?
2a)if he is safe gridding, you have a much better chance to hit him
2b)if he is blind gridding, it will be hard as hell to hit him, BUT it is unsafe for him to do that because you (if you were smart and knew he was blind gridding) have traps laid around to cap his Butt.

attack macros do NOT kill people. PEOPLE kill people. the last person to kill me at keys was Angus Thermopyle and thats cause he was playin dirty, hehe. he did NOT use a script to kill me. he played smart.
the last person that i killed at keys was big12ozhog, i did not use a script, i used a nice lil macro

you can also use attack scripts against people. if you know what they are using or how their script works you can use it to your advantage, because at keys, you can adjust and do the unexpected, a script has set boundaries that it HAS to stay inside.

Slim