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 Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR 
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Unread post Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
So I'm playing on a no-mega rob server. I've got a lvl 4 planet and wanna convert to D/RTR.

First off, is there a good reason to use multiple 10k ports instead of using less 32k ports? I'm thinking its less difficult to use less ports that are maxed. I assume the only risk is the loss if someone destroys a fully upgraded port.

My issue is that were talking about a LOT of initial investment cost:

So I'll give an example: 1500 turn game, 25% production per day
128 turns port1
128 turns port2
50 turns for RTR (assuming ~30k exp)
10 turns movement+slop
================================
316 turns

So for 1500 turns I need about 5 pairs = 10 ports
Every 4 days I can use a port so I need 40 ports!
40 ports upgraded for 2.7 mil each.... 108 mil investment?!?!

My concern is if I bump my exp up to 30k+ from all this money going to port upgrades it seems a terrible idea to continue to SDT cause I will lose so much exp from my busts and eventually normalize back down to 8-9k exp...so the question is if I want to build this empire of 40 ports up over a few days how do I minimize the damage of having no cash flow for a few days...also if I max an XXB its still got 4 days before I can unload on it..

Opinions / Ideas wanted!


Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:46 pm
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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
lmstr wrote:
So I'm playing on a no-mega rob server. I've got a lvl 4 planet and wanna convert to D/RTR.

First off, is there a good reason to use multiple 10k ports instead of using less 32k ports? I'm thinking its less difficult to use less ports that are maxed. I assume the only risk is the loss if someone destroys a fully upgraded port.

My issue is that were talking about a LOT of initial investment cost:

So I'll give an example: 1500 turn game, 25% production per day
128 turns port1
128 turns port2
50 turns for RTR (assuming ~30k exp)
10 turns movement+slop
================================
316 turns

So for 1500 turns I need about 5 pairs = 10 ports
Every 4 days I can use a port so I need 40 ports!
40 ports upgraded for 2.7 mil each.... 108 mil investment?!?!

My concern is if I bump my exp up to 30k+ from all this money going to port upgrades it seems a terrible idea to continue to SDT cause I will lose so much exp from my busts and eventually normalize back down to 8-9k exp...so the question is if I want to build this empire of 40 ports up over a few days how do I minimize the damage of having no cash flow for a few days...also if I max an XXB its still got 4 days before I can unload on it..

Opinions / Ideas wanted!

Whats the same turn breakdown to continue SDT? What is the actual credits per turn average for each? Because you probably take that average (c/t ave) and run which ever is higher.

From: http://tw-cabal.navhaz.com/formulas.html
TW-CABAL wrote:
Red Profit Breakdown for SST, SDT, Team SDT, and Megga Rob.

NOTE: ALL calculations assume you are using -65 MCIC ports. This tries to show the MAX potential profit per turn. These calculations were done using Elder Prophet's Haggle routines, and the SST is an average, since the actual income from ship trades has many variables, that can't all be easily factored in. The SDT math assumes that you were doing sell offs every 2000 units of EQ and the planet trade is set to 100% . Busts calculated at 1 in 50. By team, I mean your reds are clearing each other's busts.

SST per Turn Solo, assuming you are furbed: 14,035
Blue turns needed per red turn (Using ISS): 0.22

Team SST per Turn, assuming you are furbed: 14,139
Blue turns needed per red per turn (Using ISS): 0.113

SDT per Turn Solo, assuming you are furbed: 15,921
Blue turns needed per red turn (Using ISS): 0.31

Team SDT per Turn, assuming you are furbed: 17,271
Blue turns needed per red per turn (Using ISS): 0.16


What may surprise some people is how much you can make SST'ing.

That's because you can make more profit from a ship haggle than you can from a planet haggle. Now, assuming there are 1000 turns, and you have 2 reds, your blue will be spending 620 turns furbing 2 solo reds SDT'ing, or 320 turns furbing 2 reds Team SDT'ing, or 440 turns furbing 2 solo reds SST'ing, or 226 turns furbing 2 reds Team SST'ing. So, from the blue's side, SST is more turn efficient, saving 180 turns running solos, or 94 turns running teams. This is because the red is only running the risk of busting once every 3 turns SST'ing vs every 2 turns SDT'ing, so odds are good your reds will bust less with SST. While I always recommend that your reds SDT whenever possible, it's something to keep in mind if you are pressed for blue turns. Certainly, you always want to run with 2 reds, clearing each other's busts.

THE MATH:
SST:
SST for 1000 turns
3 turns per cycle, 333 max cycles
179.59 ave sell price per unit at -65 port
44897.5 sell price for 250 holds
14950867 gross profit for 333 cycles

333 # of steal attempts, 6.66 Expected number of busts (based on 1 bust in 50)
83250 total units traded, 81585 total units traded factoring in busts

81.67 adjusted eq sold per turn
14666 adjusted profit per turn
69,040 furb cost, 459806 total ave furb cost
14666 sst profit per 1 turn
14206 after furb costs per turn

upgrading port costs
solo: 7.6 ports need upgrading, 1900 units needed, cost = 171,000
team: 3 ports need upgrading, 750 units needed, cost = 67500
14035 profit after port upgrades for solo per turn
14139 profit after port upgrades for team per turn

SDT, Solo and Team:

2000 units of eq sells for 320254 on a -65 port
so, 2 colts, 4000 units, 640508 creds, that's 2000/250 = 8 cycles between sell off
2 turns per cycle = 16 turns
1 turn for selloff = 1 turn
total: 17 turns, or 34 turns for the 2 colts.
34 turns, 640508 creds, or 18838 creds per turn
18,838,471 credits per 1000 turns
bust 1 in 50. so, every 106.25 turns you will bust, so 9.4 busts per 1000 turns so:

117.65 units of eq per turn
12470.59 units per 106 turns
12220.59 total units traded factoring in busts
115.29 adjusted eq sold per turn
18460.81 adjusted profit per turn
69,040 furb cost
649788.2353 total ave furb cost
18460812.57 sdt profit per 1000 turns
17811024.33 after furb costs

solo: 10.5 ports needed, 21000 units needed, cost = 1890000
team: 3 ports needed, 6000 units needed, cost = 540000

15,921 profit after port upgrades for solo per turn.
17,271 profit after port upgrades for team per turn.

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Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:02 pm
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1st Sergeant

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:34 pm
Posts: 40
Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
well I like math...so I like limits.

Assuming your doing SDT on a port with tons of equipment, then you rarely negotiate...so the limit approachs 2 turns per 1 unit (unit being 250 tons of equipment), or about 2.01 turns per unit on a fully upgraded port.

For D/RTR your looking at 128 turns per dump, theoretically the limit of the rob is based on exp, so as your exp increases from ever growing robs, you could eventually rob it all in a handful of turns... so the limit is close to 1 turn, which is amazing.

Also SDT == 1 bust every 100 turns, which means 1 furb. And 1 furb cost about 15-20 turns, or less with a PWARP planet.

D/RTR will get busted, but it will cost zero holds cause you will be in an worthless merf when you do it.


Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:13 pm
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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
to start with .. what is D/RTR ?
the RTR I get and can understand .. but mostly for your fuel sellers or SSS ports for upgrading planets ...
Reds do not normally buy down unless they have so much extra turns to burn.

In a non MBBS game I might rob or RTR a port but by far going full time SDT with blue support is the way to go for the cash , and because the game is set to 25% port regen is a good reason to stick to that method.

Another point totally missed here in the port stratigy is to only use best MCIC on XXB ports in the first place.
and do not sell product to a bank RTR port.

Hope this helps.

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Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:32 pm
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1st Sergeant

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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
Ok if you read TW Cabal, D/RTR is Dump Rob-Transport-Rob.

Its basically Mega Rob on servers that have Mega Rob turned off.
You buy down 2 XXS ports that are upgraded, then you Rob-Transport-Rob the cash off. When you build up to 30k+ exp you can clear two ports in a handful of turns...your exp also keeps getting bigger cause your always robbing max for your exp.

You then take the Equipment to a XXB port and sell off. It makes much more money then SDT for a few reasons...

SDT can't break 2.0 efficiency, it also costs turns to furb
D/RTR gets better and better the more your exp grows
D/RTR spends most of its turns dumping which a Blue can do instead meaning you can burn excess blue turns on it.
D/RTR doesn't bust very often, assuming you clear 5 XXS ports a day your only using about 100 turns stealing, so you only get 2-3 busts a day...and the busts will be done in ships that don't matter.

There are some obvious disadvantages, to set up a functional system it could require many many ports...40 ports per 800 turn player is a lot of ports and it is much costlier to start then SDT...even worse when you really need 20 GOOD XXB ports. My major issue with it is that it seems like an A or B choice, not a A and B. because if you do any SDT your exp hits will not be compensated by your exp gain from SDT compared to D/RTR.


Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:28 pm
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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
lmstr wrote:
Ok if you read TW Cabal, D/RTR is Dump Rob-Transport-Rob.

Its basically Mega Rob on servers that have Mega Rob turned off.
You buy down 2 XXS ports that are upgraded, then you Rob-Transport-Rob the cash off. When you build up to 30k+ exp you can clear two ports in a handful of turns...your exp also keeps getting bigger cause your always robbing max for your exp.

You then take the Equipment to a XXB port and sell off. It makes much more money then SDT for a few reasons...

SDT can't break 2.0 efficiency, it also costs turns to furb
D/RTR gets better and better the more your exp grows
D/RTR spends most of its turns dumping which a Blue can do instead meaning you can burn excess blue turns on it.
D/RTR doesn't bust very often, assuming you clear 5 XXS ports a day your only using about 100 turns stealing, so you only get 2-3 busts a day...and the busts will be done in ships that don't matter.

There are some obvious disadvantages, to set up a functional system it could require many many ports...40 ports per 800 turn player is a lot of ports and it is much costlier to start then SDT...even worse when you really need 20 GOOD XXB ports. My major issue with it is that it seems like an A or B choice, not a A and B. because if you do any SDT your exp hits will not be compensated by your exp gain from SDT compared to D/RTR.

Need to see the math.

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Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:08 pm
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1st Sergeant

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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
From TW CABAL
========================================
Mega-Rob:
32750 total holds from an upped port
131 turns to buydown
1 turn to sell
132 turn cycle
5244159.25 creds from selloff
39728.48 profit per turn (132 turn cycle)
924 turns you can spend doing buydown (if 1000 turns)
36709114.75 max profit from Megga Rob
========================================

TEAM D/RTR:
Math based on using some of CABALs numbers
32570 total holds from an upped port
32570 total holds from an upped port

131 turns to buy down
131 turns to buy down
2 turns for xport from CT to RTR ship and back to CT
4 turns slop for possible busts
68 turns for RTR
=======================================================
336 turns

========================================================
1 turn for steal, 1 for xport
@20,000 exp - stealx6 = 120,000 per steal
avg cost of 250 tons w/ haggle = 15k = 15k*262 = 3.93mil
3.93 mil / 120k = 32.75 steals
34*2 = 68 turns to clear cash on XXS ports

5244159.25 creds from selloff * 2 PORTS
10488318.5 total profit
336 turns
31,215 credits per turn

So basically Team D/RTR is about 70% more profit then Team SDT
If you take the Team out of D/RTR you dont spend more turns, but may end
up leaving large amounts of money on the ports if you bust early and have
to wait a day before you can try again.

The cost of investment is the same as Mega Rob assuming you grow your exp
from the dump haggles and RTR.


Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:13 am
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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
I'm surprised I've never heard of D/RTR. That's pretty sick. Is new info still being added to TW-CABAL?

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Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:38 am
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Unread post Re: Evil Strategy - Transitioning from SDT to D/RTR
lmstr wrote:
From TW CABAL
========================================
Mega-Rob: 39728.48 profit per turn

TEAM D/RTR: 31,215 credits per turn


Thanks for the math. I can see why you would use D/RTR in a MBBS game with Megarob turned off.

I learn something new every day

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Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars.
Lest we forget
TTW TWGS v2 twgs.ddns.net:2002
I had to ask myself WWSGD?


Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:53 am
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