A lot of the "newbs" that get slaughtered immediately after entering a game are putting them selves in the midst of a pitched battle between existing corps and/or players who are trying to establish dominance. The fig grid is key to winning, so players defend the grid. I mean if I fight daily to lay figs and gain sectors, should I let the "newb" undo my hard work and throw away the results from the turns I have used? I doubt it. Not Logical. Innocents die in war all through history. It is sad but basically unavoidable.

What are going to be the "victory conditions" in the next version. Common condition for winning the current version's game is dominance of the universe and eliminating all opposing players. So am I expected to allow a corp of "stardock flower sellers" to thrive while eliminating everyone else? Perhaps I'm missing something?

quote:Originally posted by John Pritchett (EIS)

If that was true, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. But in reality, I hear all too often from gameops and players who are ready to throw in the towel because a game that had been running for weeks was suddenly derailed by one of "these players". There are certain players who get a kick out of being a bully, and those players won't limit their tactics to just tournaments. They'll scan around for unwary victims, and they'll get a kick out of locking up a game and ruining it for every other player there. I'm not just making this up. I get reports of this happening. It's one of the main reasons I'm concerned.


I do agree is happens sometimes, I have seen it. I believe often is it the player not knowing that is the rules of the server, and they often leave. I guess my question is, could you get these people to come in here and post? It is hard as player when I see tons of people who play the way it is today without complaint (my ICQ list is huge), and rarely see the other, so I have to comment from my perception. I would love to hear other sides from the people who have problems. I have found that 80% of situations can be defused and worked out and people can agree to certain things. I know of some servers that had the problem and posted they were a newbie server, and problems went away.

quote:
I would say that this kind of player wouldn't be such a nuisance if there weren't tactics that would allow them to gridlock a game in a few hours to begin with. If the same player had to spend even a few days trying to win the game, the thrill would be lost. It's not about winning, it's about spoiling everyone else's fun. And if I'm not talking about you, that's fine. These players know who they are. Perhaps it's only one or two. It doesn't matter. It's the fact that the situation exists and can be avoided that matters.


I agree completely. But at the same time I question a re-write to solve a problem when communication would fix it. No matter what game if you are fixing something that one or two people exploit, it seems that a communication would be a better fix. This is why I keep asking for people to post.

I guess let me rephrase this better. In general if people like a style they plan on that server. If servers advertise a specific style of game (some servers are 90% unlims, some are more low turns, etc), people will go to the servers they like. I guess to be honest do you feel many new players will be coming to the game with the competition it has? Many will be like minded people brought in by current players. So I guess I am wondering, why not simply encourage sysops to do what they want on their systems, and recruit in people that way?

quote:
You might as well make the argument that murdering people is ok simply because there aren't any people around to complain about being murdered. It shouldn't surprise you that the only people who have any interest in this forum are the people who have accepted the kind of gameplay that's prevalent in TW today. There are 10,000 games you could be playing. If you play one game of TW and you can't even move from sector to sector, you can't even begin to get a feel for what the game is really about because every sector has a fighter in it, and, God forbid, if you come into contact with one of these fighters, you're dead, I don't think you're going to waste your time playing the game again, much less participating in the forum.


I'll try to take this in the spirit of what you meant by it. So how many new people each year come to a server and experience this? The only people new I know how play TW are either A.) recruited by current players, B.) returning old players who had stopped playing for awhile. Do you believe that people will leave all the games they have today to come to TW without a reason. If they fall into one of the above groups, they already know the style of game, an seeing a game that is old or an unlim, not getting in early yields much of that situation (In my opinion).
quote:
I really don't mean to focus my attention on just "scripts" or just "advanced tactics". That's too limited. All I want to do is look at what gameplay tends to break the game. And by "break the game", I mean, what gameplay will cause a new player, upon entering any game, to scratch their head and say "what's the point"?


I'm not disagreeing with you, but more questioning how you would do that. There seems to be a large about of "bring the game back to its roots" feelings going around, as well as the above. Could you post more specific info? I'm perhaps simply uninformed.

quote:
To get back to your UT example, you say it blows to play against a great player. Well, let's expand that example to an online game. Typically, in an online game, you have the option to avoid confrontation and do your own thing if you want. You probably can't win this way, but you have the option. And if you are just trying to learn the basics, that's probably all you're going to do. Now, in any online game with PvP, there will be elite players, and any time you go up against them, you're going to be crushed. That's fine, as long as you have a choice. I'm sure you're familiar with the problems with newbie-killing and PvP abuse in online games in general. It's no different with TW. Currently, a player has no choice, has no way to avoid being crushed by an elite player. There's no "newbie-safe zone" and no rules to control PvP. In the real world of gaming, that's a recipe for disaster.


Completely true on the above, but at the same time, I also see many game systems that use lvls, ranks, etc to determine skill so you know what you are getting into. If a newbie in any game goes into a game with advanced players, it is that way. So my feelings are still, why don't sysops setup games the way they want. If they want more newbie orientated games, they run those. People who want to advance have to get into more competitive games, and learn. Seems that the same thing could be accomplished with players/sysops taking action.

quote:
Do you realize that there are more reasons to play a game of Trade Wars than the thrill of killing other players? There's a major element of RPG in this game. Also, exploration, and building. The game was once a balance between these modes of play, but now it's heavily weighted toward killing, and only killers stick around to become masters. It's not about scripts, or about advanced tactics, it's just about having a balance between skills. If one skill so far outweighs all the others, then the game is only achieving a fraction of its potential.


Well, I'll try to tackle this one. As someone who has been involved in pencil and paper roleplaying games as well as online. I question RPG. I know what a RPG game is, and TW is not it. Now if you have a different definition of RPG I would be happy to discuss it in that vein. As to not killing, ask around, I am far from a killer. I am far more interested in tactics, planning, traps, exploration, etc. In general you are saying it is about skills. the only skill that is required is how to protect yourself. Seems true in every game. You can be a great <insert whatever here> but if you can't defend you are in trouble.

Let me take a different stab at this. What you are more saying is you want a less "competitive TW" and a more social like game. It seems that much of what you want could be setup in tournament/competitive play vs non competitive play which some servers have.

Jhereg

Actually, you're not missing something at all. This is one of the traditional flaws with TW. There really aren't any "victory conditions" defined by the game. A game is basically over when everyone in the game agrees that it's over. This is a sad substitute for an actual goal. So yes, I would like to attempt to add a set of victory conditions, configurable so that different games can have different goals. Obvious kinds of victory conditions would be "capture the flag", "king of the hill", "bloodbath", or "last man standing". Some interesting TW games have been designed that attempt to create victory conditions, or at least goals. It would be good to implement some of these within the game so that it's possible to win a game without having to lock down the entire universe.

But beyond that, I guess I'd ask what the victory conditions were in TW before it was possible to lock down the universe. Usually, one Corp would become so powerful relative to the others that the gameop would "call the game". In the absence of something as definitive as a gridlocked universe, other measures were used to decide the winner. It has always seemed to be rather vague, I'm afraid. Locking down the universe has value in that it does provide a more definitive endgame condition, but again, this came about by chance and not by design. It is better to consider the design and decide what endgame conditions would be in the best interest of fun.

ok, man i just read alot.. lets see:
playing UT vs elite VS playing tw vs elite
ive played UT against elites and i just died and died and they never taught me a thing
ive played tw against elites and sometimes i die, sometimes they die, but when i get into a pitched space battle with someone who can very well smoke me, it gets my adrenaline going and i get pumped up. i love it! sure i might die, but hey, its super fun! my example is Angus Thermopyle. he is a great player. he taught me ALOT about this game. i loved playing with him, but i loved playing against him more because i KNEW that i had to be smart, i had to be fast, and the whole time it was fun. it was still a social game, when one of us killed the other, we would then report to ICQ to give the other one crap. heh. other online games.. doesnt happen.

SGO you said:
Ok First, they are running bots, that allow them to utilize their partners turns! Therefore, they are garaunteed the maximum benefit for each player in their corp. Then, they run scripts using these bots, which garauntees them the max benefit for EACH TURN! Then, they are RUNNING those bots so that they can send one of their partners off into the universe to "grid" the universe with fighters.

Meanwhile, they run multiple scripts at once, so that, while they are trading, ssting, or colonizing, if a new player enters the game and hits one of their fighters, their scripts take over, warp them (or one of their partners they are botting) off to kill the new player.

wow.. if someone has a bot that lets their partner grid for them or stops their trade/colo script to come attack me, PLEASE let me play against them, because it doesnt take an IQ of 50 to realize that if what you said were correct, they would be dead against even a DECENT player. NO "elite" would ever in their right mind use scripts like that and i very much DOUBT the existance of such scripts. "elites" do NOT run afk kill scripts. if they do, they are NOT "elite"

once a players caught me with a pdrop (dont remember his name, he wasnt "elite" as he was afk) i think he podded me once. then i got into a different ship, went, hit his fig, smoked his Butt when he lifted off his planet and invaded it. he was using "advanced tactics" and "kill scripts" BUT he was afk. if he was at keys (and had half a brain) he would not have tried to pdrop me, heh.

you played DU with a corp of new people. they never got out of their pods so i assume they didnt run their turns. there is problem #1. problem #2 is you were playing against a corp of people who know what they are doing with a corp of people who don't.
problem #3 unless it was a super small universe there is no way a stockish 800 turn game would be locked down in 5 days. if it was they must of had no cash and no planets or colonists to speak of so should have been easy to just waste what resources they had (800 turns is different than unlim, you can cash just the same as DU in a turn game) and then taken over.

thats all i got for now, heh.

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord

As for my macros, they are just fine. They are quite simple to write.

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCd<



This macro leaves a chance of you being photoned by someone with a good enough connection to the server and a fast enough script. Try:

(sector)^ma10^mf1^mCdx(safeship)^m^m

quote:
You would think that my macro can keep me from being hit by a photon move or planet drop script, and on a good fast server they do me good often enough, but I'm telling you now, I get hit anyway, using macros to enter and exit the sector! Why this is I can only guess


I already explained why this is in a previous post. I suggest you re-read the one regarding delays.

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord

Ok, I must be really dense here, because I don't GET any displays to abort when I'm running my macros! I set my ansi and color off at all times (I rarely ever use them) and furthermore, I've placed spaces in my macros ever since I started hearing about them, they do not affect the way my string executes, neither do they affect the way the game is displayed.


With color off, you can not abort displays, either with space or with cn9 being set to all keys. In general, it is faster to leave color on and then abort displays than turning color off.

Draconis you said:

quote:

SGO never understood after all his years of play how to use spaces to abort displays. I guess this is a prime example, I have newer players who I spend hours with who have learned that. They may not have advanced scripts, etc. but they are learning the game concepts which allows them to advance

Now, we are getting to the nitty gritty here! I'm trying not to lose my patience, but I believe that any reasonable mind can read your comments and see what is happening here. I'll break it down for you though.

Yes, I never realized that my displays weren't aborted, but you are conveniently overlooking one thing. Aborting displays has only become necessary because of gridding scripts and kill scripts!!!! Do I need to abort my displays while trading? No! Do I need to do it while building? No! Do I need to abort display while colonizing? Well, yes and no. Yes, if I am in a race for colonists with other players, it's a skill that I have been neglecting! Will it get me killed? If I am not fed safe, most definately, ESPECIALLY when someone is running a kill script at Terra!

So it comes back to what we have been talking about. Yes indeed, aborting displays is a CRUCIAL SKILL to have now, if you want to survive, but why? Because of SCRIPTS! That has been the point all along!

I can sum up your argument, and you've made this same argument over and over again, "scripts are not a problem for someone who is willing and able to learn how to get around those scripts.

Yet, I believe the point JP has been trying to make to you all along is, this ought not to be, and that the AVERAGE NEW player is NOT GOING to go out of his way to find out what the tricks (like aborting displays properly) are in order to learn how to play. FURTHERMORE, it is WRONG that a new player must absolutely RELY on finding someone to MENTOR them! Why? Because this breeds the "clique" sort of atmosphere that has COMPLETELY taken over this game!
Draconis said:quote:

And in general, I'm sorry if a team of newer players went to a major tournament and got wiped out. Lets pick ANY online game. New players don't make it past round 1 anyway. So that can't be used as a valid example. I mean pick any online game, sport, etc. Does high school baseball teams play the Pros? They shouldn't survive.

We did quite well! We came in second! NOT BAD for a team of "new players," who had NO scripts huh?


quote:
I would also like to point out, that of all these complaints about scripts ruining games, you will notice only one person on your entire forums has responded, and ONLY about one of the initial points. If you feel SGO is the norm, umm....were are these people?

I'd like to underscore this comment. JP, I hope you see this, because I've told you this privately before. The "Eisonline" forums community is under the false assumption that they ARE the TW Community! This above comment proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt! They think that their "general consesus" here is the "popular opinion."

Really, it is my assertion, and has BEEN my assertion that the REAL truth is, if you don't agree with the "general consesus" here among this "clique" well, you are nobody, your skills suck, and you don't count.

Why would ANYONE post an opposing view here? Why would ANYONE come here and dare say "I think scripting is wrong," or "I think scripting ruins the game?" They would only suffer the same sort of bashing and flaming that I and a few others have suffered. Not everyone has the kind of self esteem that can withstand that sort of verbal abuse.

The only reason I keep posting is because, frankly, I don't care what these guys think of me. They haven't earned my respect as players, and when they take cheap shots at me, they don't earn my respect as a human being either!

Yes, I've made mistakes in this forum, and yes, I've written checks with my mouth that my Butt couldn't cash!

Yet, by and large, there are far more people that agree with my views than many here at Eisonline even imagine! I get emails privately from people who commend me for some of the stands I've taken!



Feral said:quote:
I doubt you would have survived for 14 -16 days, because they would have figged the whole grid. Get your facts straight!

It WAS gridded. In fact they had fighters SURROUNDING our base for about 8 to 10 days! I DO know a few tactics and tricks, despite what you all might think! I'd tell you how I did it, but why should I, you say I'm a "no skill loser," I'll just let you believe that, and if I ever decide to play for real in this game, I'll be looking forward to taking you on!

Feral said:
quote:
SGo... Do you know the level of game knowledge of every player you have played against. You are making generalized statements about people you have never met or conversed with. So how do you know? Just because someone utilizes a scripts doesn't mean they have no game knowledge. I see why you are often ridiculed... Really man.... This is what causes flames and etc.. This is why you got ran out of the TWGS.ORG forum. You seem to never learn...


Heh that is infantile! The whole post! The only response I can give is, I've had conversations with Alexio, and with everyone that was on his team at the Nationals (in fact I've corped with one or two of them). As for me being "run off" of that other forum. That is HILARIOUS. I left because I determined in my own mind that I'd rather talk to smelly billy goat than to talk the the majority of those people!



Draconis said:
quote:
Now if you have a different definition of RPG I would be happy to discuss it in that vein. As to not killing, ask around, I am far from a killer.


Well, you are right on one point... the game NO LONGER has ANY RPG element, because the game has become a "shooting match." I can assure you however, it was not always like this. The game USED to have LOTS of RPG element to it!

quote:
Slim
NO "elite" would ever in their right mind use scripts like that and i very much DOUBT the existance of such scripts. "elites" do NOT run afk kill scripts. if they do, they are NOT "elite"

Good LORD Slim, you aren't being HONEST at all! There is NO RISK to running an afk script when your partner can run a BOT to control your character! The scripts DO exist, they have been debated RIGHT HERE at this forum! If I can run a script that allows me to type in "(sector such and such) save me" and bam my AFK partner brings a planet to me, it's not hard to figure out how such scripts could be used to do a PLETHERA of other things in the game, and allow SEVERAL PLAYERS to just log in and then leave!


Slim also said:
quote:
unless it was a super small universe there is no way a stockish 800 turn game would be locked down in 5 days. if it was they must of had no cash and no planets or colonists to speak of so should have been easy to just waste what resources they had (800 turns is different than unlim, you can cash just the same as DU in a turn game) and then taken over.

They DID lock it down in 5 days! If I could get Madd Anthony to come post here he'd verify this! We survived only because, out of sheer coincidence, that game I kept my color on when I ran my grid busting macros so that Madd Anthony could keep stealing! I wondered the entire time why my macros were working so well. (OK so I'm not always the most observant player).

I went the entire game without getting photoned, or planet dropped, or *SD* right up until they invaded my base, simply by writing macros for everything I did. Luckily, I was in the mood to see colors that game.

Now that I KNOW I will be a far more effective player against these scripts, but as I've told you all, I haven't been taking this game seriously for a long time, otherwise I might have done more research and found out what I was doing wrong with the CN1 much sooner.

I don't know exactly what your skill level is. I can only form an opinion from the posts that you make.[:D] I'm glad your high self esteem helps you cope in the forums. Infantile...heh That truly is a "cutting" statement coming from you. I will be looking forward to the time you find me in a game. Keep on being the mouthpiece for the "silent majority", but expect people to disagree with you when you post false and misinformed info in the forum.

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord
Yes, I never realized that my displays weren't aborted, but you are conveniently overlooking one thing. Aborting displays has only become necessary because of gridding scripts and kill scripts!!!! Do I need to abort my displays while trading? No! Do I need to do it while building? No! Do I need to abort display while colonizing? Well, yes and no. Yes, if I am in a race for colonists with other players, it's a skill that I have been neglecting! Will it get me killed? If I am not fed safe, most definately, ESPECIALLY when someone is running a kill script at Terra!

So it comes back to what we have been talking about. Yes indeed, aborting displays is a CRUCIAL SKILL to have now, if you want to survive, but why? Because of SCRIPTS! That has been the point all along!


Okay, now I am getting frustrated. I most admit, you really are either naive or plain stupid. I learned to abort displays before I knew how to friggin use a script. I learned because it made better game play. Not to avoid kill scripts, to speed up trading, building, coloing, etc. yah know what SWATH, your beloved helper has the capabilty built in for exactly that. Why? Because it speeds up play. Plain and simple. Nothing special beyong that. Later when i learned to script I added that, and learned to work with it.

quote:
I can sum up your argument, and you've made this same argument over and over again, "scripts are not a problem for someone who is willing and able to learn how to get around those scripts.


Ya know, it is funny, but the point I originally made was how to scripts ruin the game. And all I have heard is they help people kill. Is that it? This is a direct question, try to answer it. You keep hedging around the issue. Is that the only thing?

quote:
Yet, I believe the point JP has been trying to make to you all along is, this ought not to be, and that the AVERAGE NEW player is NOT GOING to go out of his way to find out what the tricks (like aborting displays properly) are in order to learn how to play. FURTHERMORE, it is WRONG that a new player must absolutely RELY on finding someone to MENTOR them! Why? Because this breeds the "clique" sort of atmosphere that has COMPLETELY taken over this game!


Exactly what clique? Every server I go to has its cliques, same with Starcraft, UT, Warcraft, etc. Groups of people band together.

quote:
We did quite well! We came in second! NOT BAD for a team of "new players," who had NO scripts huh?


You actually just feel like lying? I spoke to your corpie. He says he used scripts. Ya know this may surprise you, but Any built in function is swath is a script. So you used scripts, just not as good ones. So what the sum of this was, you took a newer team in, first claiming this is an example of how the game has degenerated than go on to describe how incredible you did. JP please read this. SGO is saying that script must not have hurt the game, since he and his corpie 2 on 5 vs experienced players were able to last it out. I mean come on SGO that is just plain foolish. If scripts are so powerful (that others have) and you guys used the less powerful scripts you had, and were not as knowledgeable or skilled players, yet lasted it out, it says this must not be the issue you are making it.

quote:
Yet, by and large, there are far more people that agree with my views than many here at Eisonline even imagine! I get emails privately from people who commend me for some of the stands I've taken!


Ya know, I have never met one of them. And I do take the time to play on a variety of servers as I can. Hey, for that matter SGO were do you play?

quote:
Well, you are right on one point... the game NO LONGER has ANY RPG element, because the game has become a "shooting match." I can assure you however, it was not always like this. The game USED to have LOTS of RPG element to it!


Okay, please define a RPG.
Websters:
A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance, as by the roll of dice.

http://www.rpgfan.com/editorials/old/1998/0010.html
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/R/RPG.html
http://nin.vgf.com/features/rpgdef/

Having been a Roleplaying for years, i find it humerous that people call TW a RPG. It isn't you aren't play the role of "SGO" the character. You are competiting in a competition. If you have a different definition for RPG as i asked in early post. Please post it.

quote:
Good LORD Slim, you aren't being HONEST at all! There is NO RISK to running an afk script when your partner can run a BOT to control your character! The scripts DO exist, they have been debated RIGHT HERE at this forum! If I can run a script that allows me to type in "(sector such and such) save me" and bam my AFK partner brings a planet to me, it's not hard to figure out how such scripts could be used to do a PLETHERA of other things in the game, and allow SEVERAL PLAYERS to just log in and then leave!


Now I have heard many stupid things in my life. But this takes the cake. SGO are you a programmer? Do you know how to write scripts? Do you even have a clue of what you are taking about? You really most live in your own world if you believe this stuff. While people can bot you a player, bots are not AI systems. They are not some end all be all. You seem to seriously believe there is a script that will win the game for you. This doesn't happen, and probably never will. You can't win a game boting people. Maybe a very good player who wrote his own bot MIGHT be able to against really new players, but no realistic situation will happen. This is why people insult you. You are speaking with no friggin practical knowledge.


Buttom line of what I am saying (and I've noticed a lack of SGO response on stuff instead of conceding points) is that there are servers that don't have these problems they advertise to a different group of players. Other servers cater to different groups.

Jhereg

quote:Originally posted by Draconis
quote:
yah know what SWATH, your beloved helper has the capabilty built in for exactly that. Why? Because it speeds up play. Plain and simple. Nothing special beyong that. Later when i learned to script I added that, and learned to work with it.

I'm going to say this once and that's it. Evidently you clearly do NOT have a clue what twars is about! It's not a race! "Speed up game play" you say! To what purpose? So you can lock out the game as fast as possible and "dominate" the universe as you put it, which is the EXACT thing that we've been talking about. That's NOT and I repeat NOT NOT NOT the object of Twars! I can see now that you are just SO CLUELESS as to the actual game of TWARS because ALL YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN IS THE CURRENT WAY IT IS NOW PLAYED! Which is, get as many fighters and resources as fast as you can so you can kill everyone else and lock out the game!

You will NEVER understand the point that I am making, because I REMEMBER the game before the current game tactics RUINED IT!

There is NO OTHER REASON to want to SPEED UP your COLONIZING, YOUR TRADING, YOUR BUILDING, other than to go for the "quick" game lockdown that has become indicative of modern game play, and it is that EXACT game tactics that have RUINED THE GAME!

I used to play in games that would last A YEAR!!!!! And you know what, that was the NORM! Now, someone suggested recently in a post that games should last 6 months and they got bombarded by people who said such a game would be "boring" and they'd never play it. Which tells me, those people don't LOVE the game! Why do you play a game that you don't enjoy unless you can lock everyone out in a few days or a few weeks and move on to the next game?

It's RIDICULOUS, I tell you, and no I'm not the only one who thinks so!!!

quote:
Ya know, it is funny, but the point I originally made was how to scripts ruin the game. And all I have heard is they help people kill. Is that it? This is a direct question, try to answer it. You keep hedging around the issue. Is that the only thing?

Yes, in fact THAT IS IT! I don't know HOW MANY TIMES you have to be told until you get it!

You asked "which clique?"

I was speaking about the Eisonline Forums Clique! Look, buddy, you even told JP there must not be anyone out there besides me who feels this way simply because I'm the only one posting these things in THIS FORUM! It's akin to thinking the Earth is the center of the universe!

Eisonline Forums, and the players who frequent it are NOT the center of the Twars UNIVERSE. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's only true in your own mind!

quote:
You actually just feel like lying? I spoke to your corpie. He says he used scripts. Ya know this may surprise you, but Any built in function is swath is a script. So you used scripts, just not as good ones.

Well, if MA was using scripts I wasn't aware of it, shrug. You know what now I'm getting a little bit angry! I DON'T USE THE BUILT IN SCRIPT FUNCTIONS OF SWATH! As you've pointed out, they aren't very good, and they don't have a single script built into that helper that I can't do with a simple macro. I use Swath because it has a quick macro feature! I've tried the scripts built into swath and they DON'T WORK. In fact, I've posted complaints right here in this forum about that very thing!

I'd still be using Riptel, but my computer crashed and when I went to re-register the Telegraphix registration site no longer operates!

I use macros when I'm playing a serious game.

Look, you are seriously lacking in experience, that is clear to me. You don't even understand the ISSUES that are involved when it comes to this debate because you ONLY KNOW ONE FORM OF GAME PLAY!
quote:
Having been a Roleplaying for years, i find it humerous that people call TW a RPG. It isn't you aren't play the role of "SGO" the character. You are competiting in a competition. If you have a different definition for RPG as i asked in early post. Please post it.


That's because you've never really PLAYED TRADEWARS! All you've ever played is the stripped down "shoot 'em up" version it has become!

We used to actually talk on FED COMM IN CHARACTER years ago! We named our ships and our planets based on our character!

My first Perma Corp was the NeRdS! I was Ogre, and Raven called himself Louis! We were in TOTAL CHARACTER whenever we opened up Fed Comm!

In the last tournament we played using that theme, Maxzor came in and took out our base. Then he posted a universal announcement that simply said... "NEEEEERDS!"

We had fun in this game. Now, "fun" is defined as looking at the player list on day two and seeing *SD* by the names of everyone who's not in your corp!

It's really quite sad, actually! But, I can't expect you to understand, because you just think this is text only version of the other "internet games" out there where the object of the game is to kill everything and everyone in sight as fast as you possibly can!

I'm not saying this game is PRIMARILY a RPG, but it has PLENTY of elements of RPG. You create a character, you pretend to fly around in space ships, making planets! Go to the LIBRARIUM of ANY STOCK GAME! Read the descriptions! There is PLENTY of fantasy ROLE PLAYING built RIGHT INTO THE DESIGN of the game!

Man you make me mad!

ok, ive played in almost all versions of the game. games back in the day DID last longer. but you know what, it was because we only had an hour per day to play and we only had like 250-500 turns a day. also, there was only 1 person allowed in game at a time, therefore there WAS no fedcomm. there was NO rpg element in the original game. it was an exploring type game. it WAS fun. and if people wanted a game like that, just ask a sysop to bang a 250 turn, 1 hour time limit 1k-3k universe game with all stock settings. it WILL last a long time (IF atleast 2 corps join) hell, a buddy of mine (tw55) was ALWAYS telling me to come help him out on some out of the way server on old school type games. when i played them i never even bothered to use twx, just straight zoc, i didnt need scripts. the games lasted a LONG time. the problem was, most people gave up on it and just left. the reason most games dont last a year is because who has a YEAR to dedicate to ONE game? most people have jobs and family and school to be concerned with. that is also the reason people abort displays or use scripts, because they need to use their turns quickly. i personally cant run a month long game all by hand just because it would take FAR too much time. in a turn game i prefer to use my turns and then do what i need to do in real life.

also, here is what i have to say about your so-called super scripts.
i know very little about scripting but i ask as many questions as i can to some very good scripters. from what i understand, and from what i have seen people use, NO ONE has ANY type of script that all they need to do is log in and their corpie can have them do ANYTHING. ive never seen a script that will let a corpie use their turns for gridding/attacking or ANYTHING offensive. thats just stupid. ALL bots or afk scripts i have seen are for defense only. such as the tholian refurb or the planet evac scripts. also, there is NO script that will interupt gridding/cashing/coloing/buydowns/etc and go and auto kill some player. im no scripter but i have an IDEA of how scripts work and to write something that would do that would be out of the question. first off it would be slow, second it would probably F up 99% of the time and just stall the player, third it would take SO much time to write something that ridiculous that NO one would undertake it as it would be a waste of time. i can run a colo/cash/grid/etc script and just watch to see if someone hits figs, then stop my script, and manually respond to the threat faster than this "super" script and i could do it alot safer. the "super afk kill script" is just a myth man, its hiding out with the lochness monster and bigfoot. sometimes people claim to see it, but in reality they are just delusional.

im tired, im going to bed, heh that is all for tonight.

Slim

I have gotten complaints and questions about this thread and I will address them all here, after reading this those interested in actually discussing the topic in an intelligent and civil manner can do so.

JP has made a couple posts here and that combined with some intentional instigation by another person has lead to the belief that it’s JP’s intention to alter the game and some how ruin it for advanced players by catering to a “silent majority”. This is exactly the reason why we haven’t posted the exact details of changes for v4, because we don’t want to spend a huge amount of time answering to “the sky is falling” type posts. But because the subject has once again been breached and in such a way as to insinuate that a player on a polar opposite of a debate and with very limited game knowledge, both in the game mechanics and actual foundation of the game’s intent is in some way is steering the changes, and also just outright wrong rumors being spread about what is being changed, it has once again become necessary to put these rumors to rest (or attempt to).

Now as to changes that are in store for v4 and what we intend to do, I will not give you specifics on each proposed change because they are still being tweaked and those that are on the list at this time may not make it to actual deployment. Please remember that the original plan was to alter the current game (v3) to these changes but in an attempt to appease as many players as possible JP went ahead and decided that v3 would remain as is and these changes would be brought forth in a new version, so those who do not like the game play changes to v4 will still have the option of playing v3.

Some of the main questions I have received (in ORANGE):

Scripts being removed from the game, or the ability to use scripts.

This is 100% not going to happen. I will say that scripts have become much more powerful then they should be and it will be addressed. Those that will be the hardest hit will be kill scripts that rely on speed of reaction and BOT scripts. This does not mean that they will be removed, but that their effectiveness will be downgraded by a number of means that are very doable and will allow more classic play. It is not the intention of the changes to remove legitimate tactics from the game, only to limit the ability of advanced tactics to ruin a game. BOTS while not being an “AI” as someone put it is still a very powerful tool, especially when combined with instant communication ability and the speed at which the game currently is played and will be addressed.

“Dumbing down” the game in order to let new players play with experienced players.

It is not the intent to make the game some fairy wonderland were weak players are coddled and advanced players are forced to play down to their skill level, it is however intended to bring back more of the strategy that was involved in the MBBS version of multiplayer Trade Wars. This will include many areas where game play stays the same, and many areas where game play changes. These changes will be very familiar to those that played the MBBS version and they will have a head start on those strategy’s that work best in this new environment. The advanced players of today will be forced to re-think their strategy and adapt their style of play, those who do will remain advanced players those who don’t or refuse will not. The bottom line just as in v3, the better players will still be better and win 9 out of 10 times against lesser players, the difference is hopefully that the less skilled players will be able to advance if the so choose simply on their ability to play the game at its core and to enjoy themselves while they do it. As JP has said Trade Wars should be more like chess and less like checkers, but it’s not the intent to make it tic-tac-toe.


Trade Wars is going to become a multiplayer version of the old DOOR. Because that’s what’s going to bring thousands of players into the game.

This is a crazy a stretch of what is actually the intent. No one involved with the changes is under the delusion that any changes short of a 3-D engine and calling it DOOM 4 is going to dramatically increase the player base or bring throngs of brand new players into a ANSI text game. The intent is to make it more reminiscent of the game that a multitude of players who have left the game over the past 5 years to be able to come back in and play again. This does not mean that it will go back to its “roots” or so to say it will not be exactly like the door version of the game. However there are elements of the original door that will be brought back, that have been completely removed in the last 5 years of the game. While Trade Wars 2002 was an excellent door game for its time no one wants to make a multiplayer version where you are forced to play in a boring and stagnant universe. MBBS is actually the “roots” of the multiplayer Trade Wars game, but it still held true to the majority of the key elements that this game is based on. Hopefully v4 will pick up where HVS left off and improve it to the eventual goal of making the perfect multiplayer strategy text game (and yes it does have RPG elements as well, although there will be no luck of the dice).


JP is listening to people that have no idea what he is talking about and will ruin the game trying to cater to these people, how can he make changes to the game if he doesn’t even play.

First let me say that while no JP doesn’t play Trade Wars he knows an quite a lot about what makes a good strategy game and he doesn’t listen to any one group of people anymore then another. He takes comments from many people of varying ability and game styles, discusses ideas with many people of varying ability and game styles, and has further discussions with a smaller core of people he has known for quite some time who have been involved with this game a great deal of time, who have devoted a great deal of effort and time to learn the mechanics and intention of the game gets their input on changes he would like to make and then he decides what changes he feels are best for the game based on all that data. The changes v4 will have to offer have been being discussed and analyzed for a good amount of time and for the past 2 years very thoroughly. These changes will also be tested, scrutinized and tweaked by a group of people that will further advance the changes to a higher level. Changes are not thrown in willy-nilly and not done at the beck and call of any single player, or group of players. In the end its JP who decides what goes in or what doesn’t go in, and he has earned that right, and frankly he has earned the right from everyone that plays this game to trust that he will do what is right for the game.

I am sure these answers will not answer all your questions, and I am sure you what more specifics, but at this time that is all these is, if you would like to see first hand what these changes will be in total and have some input on the tweaks for these changes please contact Harley about joining the v4 alpha team. This is a closed team so make sure that you are well-versed in either the current v3 or the MBBS version before applying.

Now as to the complaints about this thread, I will be sending out private messages to clear that up. If you receive that private message I suggest you follow it. For those of you who don’t please by all means continue on with the thread as I think positive things can come of this discussion.

"This is a crazy a stretch of what is actually the intent. No one involved with the changes is under the delusion that any changes short of a 3-D engine and calling it DOOM 4 is going to dramatically increase the player base or bring throngs of brand new players into a ANSI text game."

LOL

"Please remember that the original plan was to alter the current game (v3) to these changes but in an attempt to appease as many players as possible JP went ahead and decided that v3 would remain as is and these changes would be brought forth in a new version, so those who do not like the game play changes to v4 will still have the option of playing v3."

and that i think is why this should not be an arguement, but discussion, because no matter WHAT changes are made in v4, if people dont like it, they can still play v3.
everyone will be happy and i hope v4 turns out well and ill be sure to try and bribe harley to let me on the testing team, heh. im no script kiddie but i have a fair amount of game knowledge and am an at keys macro monkey at heart.

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady

ok, ive played in almost all versions of the game. games back in the day DID last longer. but you know what, it was because we only had an hour per day to play and we only had like 250-500 turns a day. also, there was only 1 person allowed in game at a time, therefore there WAS no fedcomm. there was NO rpg element in the original game. it was an exploring type game.


First, the year long games I played in were MBBS version multi node games with upwards of 10 to 20 people all in the game, with usually 5 people playing at once. The turns were low, usually 500 to 750, that is true. As for no RPG element, evidently you know more about the game than JP, because he told you flatly the game has an RPG element!
quote:
ive never seen a script that will let a corpie use their turns for gridding/attacking or ANYTHING offensive. thats just stupid. ALL bots or afk scripts i have seen are for defense only. such as the tholian refurb or the planet evac scripts. also, there is NO script that will interupt gridding/cashing/coloing/buydowns/etc and go and auto kill some player.

Slim, do a search on old threads for the word "bot." You will find these types of bots described in detail by those who use them. Many posts were made defending bots saying "they only ensure that if a partner can't use his turns, the turns won't go to waste." Now, how does a tholian refurb or planet evac bot help you make sure a partner's turns don't go to waste?????

Also, Slim, I don't know about Zoc, but TWX allows me to run SEVERAL scripts at once. I can run world trade, and fire up a "photon move" script at the same time. They will run together!

Now, if I can write a script that will warp me to an adjacent sector when a player hits one of my fighters, and fires a photon into that sector, how hard would it be to run that script while I'm running world trade, and keep a photon on me, and put into my world trade script a holo scan command that shuts down the script if it sees offensive figs or mines or debris?

For that matter, if a script can be written that allows me to sit on a planet, waiting for someone to hit a fighter, then warps the planet there, what is stopping me from writing a script that warps me to my home sector when a player starts hitting my fighters, lands me on the planet, and waits for the next fighter hit? Now, I can sit there and run my world trade or world sst, and run the other script at the same time. When someone starts running a lawn mower on my gridded figs, my second script kicks in, warps me home, lands, and waits for the next time the player hits one of my fighters.

These scripts DO exist, I assure you.

quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (teamEIS)

[white]
JP has made a couple posts here and that combined with some intentional instigation by another person has lead to the belief that it’s JP’s intention to alter the game and some how ruin it for advanced players by catering to a “silent majority”.

Rick before you start making accusations like this I suggest you read the entire thread! I did not instigate this thread! Furthermore, I have not attempted to twist or misquote any of JP's words, in fact, apart from saying "your on the right track JP" I haven't commented much on what he had to say!

What strikes me is that JP's posts speak for themselves, and if I were JP I'd be extremely insulted that you think you can speak for him, or that you believe you can "explain" in an apologetic manner for anything JP says concerning future versions of this game, especially since the future changes of this game are SOLELY JP's decision, and while I'm quite sure he takes into account your opinion, you do not have ANYTHING to say about those changes whatsoever!

I find you extremely presumptuous, and the way you talk about JP as if he works for you instead of the other way around is quite comical!

As for you "warning" you sent to me, I find it amazing that people can come in here and call me stupid, and make hugely offensive personal attacks on me (and in fact you do this on a regular basis), and then you send ME a warning that I'm "smack talking!!!"

That's funny.

Look, the truth hurts, if you want to ban me for speaking my mind, just because you don't like what I say, go for it!

Bottom line is, you try to paint my posts as the "ramblings" of an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about the game, but the truth of the matter is, if that were so, you wouldn't be threatening to ban me, because everyone would KNOW that my posts were just ramblings of an idiot, they'd all get a good laff about it, then they'd post the facts in rebuttal, and people would just skip over my posts!

That is not the case here, however. I'm touching on a nerve, because there is much truth to what I am saying.

JP, this is to you:

If you want to see Twars die out, I'd have to say that letting Rick Meade "silence the customer when he has a complaint" is a very good way to go about it!

Just so you know, JP spoke of receiving emails from people complaining that scripting has made it impossible to play the game, guess what, he wasn't talking about emails from me, because I haven't sent JP an email in MONTHS! Evidently, there are others who feel as I do. Or, perhaps Rick is accusing JP of lying about this!

Anyway, Rick, we can all read what JP wrote in his posts, we don't need you to explain them away or attempt to post disclaimers!