I've seen a couple of posts mentioning game defined winning conditions and I really think that is a good idea. It could help remove a lot of the "kill everything that moves" attitude and breath some fresh life into the game. Things like capture the flag, control certain clusters for X days, those could be really fun. If a corp new they had to capture 5 planets before they game would end, they would be more likely to keep their resources than use them killing people who weren't a threat.

i very much agree with like the last 5 posts or so. winning conditions not only would make the game less of a kill spree, but it would create new strategies, it would give you also many more options on HOW to play and would also make a wider varity of games that would appeal to many more people. i fully support the idea of somehow intigrating winning conditions into v4 (as a non programmer i dont know how easy that will be, but you have my 100% moral support, heh) heck, i think that ALONE would solve ALOT of the problems. also, you could in version 4 make truces part of tedit. so if the sysop wanted, you couldnt attack anyone/zdy anyone within X amount of days. alot of people complain because truces fail. well, thats one way to fix it (not the easiest is my guess, heh) but i truely look forward to seeing v4 come out and think it is on the right track (whatever that may be, heh, but i trust you JP. as i think Rick said, you may not "play" twars, but you know more about it than most anyone and you surely know alot about creating a strategy game which is really what is needed, an outside prospective to create the game, not someone who plays it. if you played it, i think it would eventually make whoever is writing it baised towards certain things. (which probably is why you DONT play, so you can do the game justice) keep doin what you are doing.)
traitor, you never pissed me off, heh.

Slim

quote:Originally posted by Slim Shady
traitor, you never pissed me off, heh.


Heh, give it time, give it time

quote:Originally posted by Draconis

Prinz,

For the record you are completely normal people. You play TW on a server in the way you want too. Which has been my point all along. You guys are happy, people play the way you want too. Your server is what they want, so does something need to be changed to resolve that?


Changes? Well a better alien AI would be good. [:D] Other than that, I like the enforced truces idea, and of course integrated winning conditions. Maybe some enhancement of the RPG aspects of the game. None of this is critical to the way my server runs games, but it would help my players convince thier friends to try an old text-based game in the world of EverQuest and such.

~Prinz of Darkness

Scripts don't kill people...People that know the game with the scripts macro's etc... kill people.. I love seeing new scripts... See if i can break them... Hanging them up or what not to get the script to crash, so when the person is offline makes them alot easier to kill... which i have done several times to many players.... people complain about scripts... but macro's out proform them... learn your game and your tactics.... and the scripts don't even seem to be a issue....

Sorry, I've only read through the first two pages, but I think I've got the gist down. Here are my thoughts...

First off, I started playing the original bbs door game, 1k sec. Yes, only one could log on at a time. BBS Time was as valuable as turns in those days. Time and Turn management were skills worth learning.

CIM Data: Was put there for analysis. Sure, you can use it effectively, manually, in a game. Also it could be copied and analysed in VisiCalc (Now known as Excel... . Heck, I had a tough time loading it all into my ATARI computer without running outta memory. Plain and simple, I believe that CIM data is perfectly ok to use in an automated fasion.

It's a map of the universe, built for days when most home computers came with memory sizes measured kilobytes (i.e. 64k base mem for 6502 proc as found in commodore, atari, and apple 2 computers, 640k for IBM PC Maxed.), not megs or even gigs. It's nice that the code to enter CIM mode is now shown on the menu.

Scripting:
Although there have been scripts available for well over 10 years, the game was meant neither to be played with or without them. As far as what they should and shouldn't be used for, I think that John Pritchett's posts about V4 really sum up well what's wrong with scripting in today's TW.

Outside of tournaments, and games where you can expect all players to be of a certain level of expertise, some restraint should be excercised with your scripting. Besides... using your most advanced script in a non-event game... Isn't that just giving your opponents a chance to figure out a counter where it doesn't matter? Tourneys should have rules if any restriction on the types of scripts are desired.

Here's my thoughts on proper and improper use of scripts in public/open games.

All Scripts should be manually triggered. You're not playing the game if you're AFK for anything other than to get a soda. This leaves open Trading, SSM, SST... even world scripts, because you set them, and monitor the game while they're going.

(**Morally Speaking**)
Sure, some exceptions could be made, but attacks should ALWAYS be manually triggered. (Even defensive ones.) Yes, you should be able to set up your own defensible position. Now that's not to say that your pdrop script couldn't just have a safety on it, but you need to be at the wheel, otherwise you're not playing the game.

(**More Morality**)
Attacking should be initiated manually. Strategy is what should determine if/when you attack; NOT just "If someone trades at my port, kill them..." Even killing off the single figs that people leave as trash lying around the universe should not be considered a hostile act in my book. (Yes I know that gridding and such is a tactic... but when you're doing it, I think one shouldn't be pissed when some get knocked off by someone other than who you were looking for...)

(**Back to Reality**)
Now I think that adding delays on things, such as making it slower to transwarp earth, than the space shuttle, makes sense to me, and I think can largely mitigate many of these attacking problems. As I recall... there was a 1 planet move per day limit in earlier TW versions... That makes sense too...

(**OK Rambling**)
I would never have considered a planet as an aircraft carrier (even though they did do a moon in Star Wars... but it was really a big ship...), but in real life it would be slower, so make it slower... sounds like an excellent idea.

John made a lengthy post on page 2 that sounds EXACTLY on target, and I'd love to help out with the v4 project. In my day job, I'm a .NET coder, and I'd love the opportunity to write a helper for that one.

Anyway, I'm not against scripts at all. I just think that they should be used responsibly, and it reflects poorly on people who overuse them. If ya want a game to use the more aggressive ones in, maybe a friendly game-op can set you up a game that's clearly marked so newbies, and builders can avoid them before they enter. (Or clearly mark the ones that the banned guy plays in...)

I play mainly on Darkstarbase, and he seems willing to put up as many games, whatever type, that are requested. If ya need one, http://www.darkstarbase.com is a good one.

I do agree with John that the Attackers do currently have an edge. They are, however, merely observing, and taking advantage of the way the game is made. No cheating there; just something the designers, and game ops should take into account. Modifications mentioned for v4 will, I agree, go a long way towards being able to correct that imbalance. It's no-one's fault unless they refuse to acknowlege and adapt to it. Bravo for doing so.

*** Disclaimer ***
None of this was meant to be other than an expression of my opinion. Please don't flame, I think everyone here is absolutely correct. The game was made flexible to support a variety of playing styles. It allows us all to develop our own tactics, and is intended, in my opinion, so as not to put a slant on any one playing style. As long as they're following the stated rules of the game, I don't believe that anyone is cheating. The argument is more of a moral issue than anything. Let he who hath no sin throw the first stone.

2 year old post... hehe. I don't think many of these posters even play anymore. Heck, even slim doesn't play anymore... he's just too hooked on forum crack to leave.

Still, If you ARE HC, welcome back.

LOL, I didn't realize that Rick was so funny! I guess SGO just brings out the best in everybody, hehe. HC look foreword to hearing more of your ideas.

Thanks... Didn't notice the year! (I thought these were a lot of posts for two days...)

I think there's another hellcat or two out there... I quit for about 10 years, not counting that I came back for a bit a few years ago, then quit again. Mostly known around STL BBSs back in the day, but played a bit on telnet. Galileo Informatica was my home base for a while...

I've had the handle since about 87-88.

What happened? All these forums and stuff must be pretty dead then...

Oops... Must not be lookin' in the right place... I see a lot of recent stuff out there... I think I was searchin', and somehow found this...

Sadly the best activity has gone the way of the dinosaur... atleast in this forum.

Ohhh no it’s that vicious carnivore Signotosaurus!!! Run for your lives!! [:O]

quote:Originally posted by Draconis

I can see some of what you are saying JP. But to be honest, the problem isn't in the game model, it is in the editor. When you have people without a clue making edits that breed the very problems you describe, well, that is were it lies. Lets be realistic. How easy is it to lock down a 800 turns stock game? With a few corps playing, really hard. The problem is that people make edits that encourage that kind of end result. With a large number of players playing high turn/unlim games, they are short and end quickly. Perhaps you should look into this as part of the problem. Just something I have noticed alot.

Jhereg


Amen brother!!!

I've been saying this for a long time, tho i don't post much. I've played off and on forever. Back on the old eclipse, fament, evolution, etc. The trend these days is all towards unlimited turn games and 50k turn games. Everyday 2 new unlimited turn games bang. Its pathetic. It really annoys the hell out of me to check the rebang forum here and on vulcan's. And when a decent low turn game is banged hardly anyone shows up. Its almost like the community wants to turn tradewars into a first person shooter. I'm all for ending the game as soon as i can using any means necessary. But i prefer lower turn games where the strategy isn't like that of a 50k turn game with 1tpw ships, grid for 1 hour and have it on lock lol.

I dunno just my 2 cents..
-LT

quote:
We couldn't colonize without staying fed safe.


Hrmm , well as far as this goes. Most fast typers could sit at the right prompt and kill a non-fedsafe colonizer by hand and if they don't type fast a macro hit several times in a row would do it. No script required.

quote:

As for me, I don't see the point of those that let software play the game for them primarily, and then develop huge game egos because of it. Shrug. I never did get that, and I never will.


Really to be honest imo its been a progressive thing imo. Back in the early 90's i was using TWAR, offline helpers, and SALT scripts for telix to do a variety of things. Back in 1.03d i was using macro's to do rob/resells at ports [back when you could do it many times in a row at the same port]....

So scripts and helpers are nothing new its just progressivly advanced. The biggest advance was when xide produced twxproxy. The language was easy to learn and built around the game. As scripts advanced, people had to write more scripts to counteract those scripts etc. It also had to do with broadband becoming easily acessible to the public. This allowed for more and more people to be online 24/7 in a game.

As far as giving up scripts? I can think of one easy thing that comes to the top of my head. When my internet goes down i gotta worry especially if i'm in a game and not corped with anyone. Now days you gotta have some kinda keep alive, or base protection script or your open game. If i go offline and someone is hunting for my stuff its open season. They can grid all over hte place and easily invade me, however if i'm online even if i'm just running keep alive its at least makes anyone looking for me or finding me think twice about how to react to my fighters or what to do when they find my base.

Its kinda sad that its come to this but thats the way it is now.

-LT

quote:

All I'm saying is, I want the game to function so that, if a player wants to compete with you, you can crush them ten ways to Tuesday. But if a player doesn't want to compete with you, if the player wants to run a flower delivery service from StarDock, that should be his or her choice. They won't be a threat to you if they do, so why should you want to crush them? Keep your "advanced tactics" for those players with the guts to oppose you.

Do you realize that there are more reasons to play a game of Trade Wars than the thrill of killing other players? There's a major element of RPG in this game. Also, exploration, and building. The game was once a balance between these modes of play, but now it's heavily weighted toward killing, and only killers stick around to become masters. It's not about scripts, or about advanced tactics, it's just about having a balance between skills. If one skill so far outweighs all the others, then the game is only achieving a fraction of its potential.



Hrmm at first i was only gonna quote the first paragraph i had quoted and was going to say, "It sounds like your wanting to turn this game into a mudstyle role playing game mixed with LORD". Then i got to that other paragraph.

To be honest i haven't thought of tradewars as anything other then a conquering game since i learned various ways to win. I mean how much is there to explore? Every sector looks exactly the same as the next unless theres something to blow up in it heh. RPG? Not really. Tradewars really is more like a first person shooter imo.

Run a flower shop? heh i mean come on. I'm assuming this was a joke but, i dunno what are you aiming for here a true RPG? If so you can count me out theres already 500 of them [graphically] and a few others remaining in bbs circles [LORD, majormud, etc]....

I honestly don't know how to strike a balance like your looking for but what i invision is, that v4 will be mostly played by these "scores" of people you claim have "thrown in the towel" and us "elites who aren't really elite" will battle in out for eternity in nostalgic v3 games . Works for me either way everyone gets what they want i spose, except fresh meat in v3 games but thats life! Its just a game heh...

-LT