quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord


I'm going to say this once and that's it. Evidently you clearly do NOT have a clue what twars is about! It's not a race! "Speed up game play" you say! To what purpose?



Not every has several hours a day, 7 days/week to dedicate to a game. The ability to get in, run your turns quickly, then go watch a movie is nice.

"As for no RPG element, evidently you know more about the game than JP, because he told you flatly the game has an RPG element!"

if you call a cow a cat, it will still moo. Jhereg is a rpg geek (hehe) and i agree with him on his definitions of an RPG as i used to play DND back in the day, and i play RPG's on console systems. twars meets no requirements of what I see as an RPG.

SGO:
zoc can't run more than 1 script at once.
twx can.
have you tried running a "kill/photon" script AND a colo/cash/grid script at the same time? you might not cby, but you most certainly won't be doing anything offensive unless its to a port.
as to writing one... as you abhor to USE of scripts i can only assume you dont write them. i don't either, so i guess i won't claim unlimate knowledge on it. i will therefore ask 5-10 scripters whose skill is well known and ask them how easy or plausable a script you speak of would be to make, and also if any of them have one.
i will attempt to get responses from Xide, Cherokee, ElderProphet, Big12ozHOG, The Reverand, Cbs228, Alexio, Rammar, Supg, Tweety, and i think Jhereg can answer right here for himself as he is part of this conversation. i can guess what the response of all of them will be, but i will post them all here when i get them.

and here i will just use my lil ole common sense to dispute your example of a world trade ran with a photon script.
i am running both scripts. someone hits my fig while i am trading between a BSB and a BBS. i can't buy ore. i went through a one way as well and there are mines/offensive figs in the adj sector. Darn, i guess im stuck, but my script is going crazy cause the guy keeps hitting my figs. now i either self torp myself searching for ore or i blow up a port and hit nav haz self torping myself, or i send my info over fed, or i cby or i just plain stop. meanwhile he keeps roasting my grid and then invades my base since i was afk while running these stupid scripts. now scripts run off triggers or they send bursts/macros (which makes them fast) if it has to wait for input (ie:someone hit my fig) it cant very well be sending bursts/macros as they do in colo/grid/cashing scripts. it would have to cash/colo/grid slower than you do by hand to be able to have enough time to react to someone hitting your fig.
and THIS i ASSURE YOU. heh

ALSO, it is true i ONCE #SD#'d someone while i was asleep running a world trade. BUT it was an accident, lol. i had invaded someone and made an automacro just incase (a guy was online at the time) then after i invaded i turned on world trade and went to bed forgetting to delete my auto macro. uncle sam joins the game and decides to photon me, he warped in and i #sd#'d him. heh. if he didnt photon me first that automacro could have screwed me up big time. i got lucky. so unless you plan to photon yourself and get lucky everytime, killing/photoning while running those scripts is just bad news.
its like listening to the radio and you have it between two stations, you get a little of both, but its just a garbled mess. no good can come from it

Slim "the afk worldtrade killer" Shady
heh

Slim, Slim Slim, I might not know the "code" for writing scripts, but I can give you the general idea of how a script would work.

You would simply put into the world trade the global command to watch for fighters of yours being hit, and then tell it "IF" you see the fighter being attacked message then cease trading and do one of these things.

1. Look for ore on your ship. If ore is there warp home.

2. Look for a place to buy ore, jettison current cargo, buy ore, warp home.

3. If cannot find ore, or am trapped by mines, figs, debris etc. then attempt to transport ship to ship to ship X.

I also would include in my world trade script a command to shut down if I am trapped by figs, mines, debris, and the same end command would exist in my photon or planet drop script.

Now, as to your AFK argument. I would like you to go back through all my posts in the thread and tell me where I ever ONCE made an issue of this being done AFK. I did mention that I could "bot" partners who were away from keyboard, but I never once complained about any of this being done AFK Slim! That was never an issue in my posts and it still isn't.

The issue has always been that a script can react faster than a human can. If I'm doing my trading myself, and someone hits my fighter, and I decide I want to kill him, I have to stop what I'm doing, do sector reports on the last sector they hit, find a nearby fighter to warp to, get ore, get a ship with photons etc. Now a script can merely in a matter of seconds find the closest fighter to the last fighter my enemy hit, and warp me there! Are you trying to tell me, Slim, that such a script doesn't exist, and you have to check into the feasability of it?

It exists! I've used one before and that was a year ago!

The problem here is that NO ONE is taking the time to actually READ my posts and try to understand what I'm saying!

As for your other objection to what I said, that if you tried to run a current standard photon move script or a planet drop script at the same time as you ran a world trade script it wouldn't work: Slim, I am willing to bet you that any standard world trade and or photon/planet drop script could be modified to run together in this way, and if no one has done it as you claim, then it seems to me there aren't very creative or talented scripters out there! NO I DO NOT NEED TO BE A SCRIPT PROGRAMMER TO KNOW IT CAN BE DONE, because I was taken through how scripts work by one of the best programmers out there! The only thing I don't know is the code script language. But common sense dictates that if you can write a script that stops when it hits a sector where there are no safe sectors (which current SST and world trade scripts already do when in paranoid mode), then you can write a script that stops world trading when someone hits your fighter. If you can write a script that when it receives the message "sector (X) save me" it warps your character in a planet to the designated sector" you can write a script the locates ore, determines if it is SAFE to locate ore, then warps you to home, lands you on a SPECIFIED planet, then waits for the next fighter to be hit, then drops a planet on the guys head! You could also write one that, stops World trade when your fighter is hit, either warps you to home or transports you into a ship that has a photon on it, waits for another fighter to be hit, calculates the nearest located fighter to that sector, warps you there, then photons the last sector in the grid that was hit, or waits for another fighter to be hit, looks for an adjacent with a fighter in it, warps you there and fires a photon!

Yes, these types of scripts exist, making them work TOGETHER in this way, while running simultaneously would not be that difficult!

Furthermore, if you can write a script that through a proxy connection can play another players turns (which the script writers already CLAIM they have) then how hard would it be to write scripts that play that person's turns by telling them to land on a planet and planet drop somebody?

As for you saying these types of scripts don't exist, well, they do exist and I know of at least ONE person who has employed them!

I guess Rick was talking about me doing the instigating and insinuating. That wasn't my intention and apologize if it read that way. (and no I didnt get any private message telling me to chill)

I was attempting to get a point across to SGO about the broad generalizations he makes, which people take offense to. Seems to fall on deaf ears.

I also intended the "silent majority" comment to reflect the fact that SGO seems to be the only person consistently posting complaining about scripts and helpers. It was not intended as a jab or slight towards anyone at EIS.

I didn't think my posts insinuated that SGO had anything to do with what JP is going to do with the game. Although from SGO's posts, I could see where someone could, as he is constantly referring to JP, like he has some inside connection.

I posted the "victory condition" post before I read JP's response in the New Game Idea thread. His response in that post answered the questions I had about his intentions in reference to game play.

quote:
I'm going to say this once and that's it. Evidently you clearly do NOT have a clue what twars is about! It's not a race! "Speed up game play" you say! To what purpose? So you can lock out the game as fast as possible and "dominate" the universe as you put it, which is the EXACT thing that we've been talking about. That's NOT and I repeat NOT NOT NOT the object of Twars! I can see now that you are just SO CLUELESS as to the actual game of TWARS because ALL YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN IS THE CURRENT WAY IT IS NOW PLAYED! Which is, get as many fighters and resources as fast as you can so you can kill everyone else and lock out the game!

You will NEVER understand the point that I am making, because I REMEMBER the game before the current game tactics RUINED IT!

There is NO OTHER REASON to want to SPEED UP your COLONIZING, YOUR TRADING, YOUR BUILDING, other than to go for the "quick" game lockdown that has become indicative of modern game play, and it is that EXACT game tactics that have RUINED THE GAME!


Thank you for typying like Res, I appreciate it. But, I'll try to be civilized about this. I started playing TW on Doors on a friggin C-64, I played years ago (I believe you if you scroll back you will find this.) It was a fun game, but now I can talk with people while I play, BS and have fun, much more enjoyable. Also as has been pointed out time and time again, games today often have more turns. So SGO, since you know me and my tactics so well. Could you please site the last 4 times I locked you out of a game? The last 4 times I podded you? I keep asking for info. And getting sweeping statements. Why speed up the game? Well if I have 20k turns to colo, I would like to get them done and spend time with my wife. I don't know your social/family situation, but my life invovles more than my computer. If I can run something to get my work done for me quicker, and "speed up game play" so I can do other things. All the better. If I am done coloing in a time limited game I can talk on fedcomm. I do it all the time, hurry to get boring stuff than, than talk. So it seems a pretty obvious reason for most I would guess. You prefer to colo slow, etc, and than chat that is your business. Most people are not in your unique situation that they can just take a long time to do something and still chat.

Have I locked out games? Yes. Usually unlims. Do I lock down turn based games? Maybe get informed and ask around. Of all the people I play with, I would say I am one of the most helpful to newbies. Just last night a corpie podded a newbie. I saw it, went and towed them to dock, asked corpies to lay off and gave them cash so they could learn. I don't lock out turn games until it is at a point someone cannot make a run. 3 days into a game, and nobody shows, game is over. You can never truly recover. But that depends if you are playing competitively. In general I play it as a competition game (of course that is how I remember it back in the early 90's). Now obviously you do too, since you went to a "tournament" which is by definition a competition.

You comments are more or less statements of ignorance. I understand TW both before and now, I see it has changed, but the core is the same. It is a WAR (See Trade WARS) game, were invading and combat is part of the game. Is it now more aggressive, sometimes, but still the same game. Now some servers run less aggressive games, and some run more aggressive. Seems a server by server decision.

quote:
I used to play in games that would last A YEAR!!!!! And you know what, that was the NORM! Now, someone suggested recently in a post that games should last 6 months and they got bombarded by people who said such a game would be "boring" and they'd never play it. Which tells me, those people don't LOVE the game! Why do you play a game that you don't enjoy unless you can lock everyone out in a few days or a few weeks and move on to the next game?


I understand in your haste you typoed. You mean that people don't love "the game you like" Not "people don't LOVE the game."

quote:
It's RIDICULOUS, I tell you, and no I'm not the only one who thinks so!!!


You keep claiming it. People did believe the earth was the center of the universe until shown otherwise. Why don't you put up and have some people post? Or email me, or ICQ me? I'd be happy to hear from them. You may be surprised that people don't believe statements from you when you make statements that people know are false at times.



quote:
Eisonline Forums, and the players who frequent it are NOT the center of the Twars UNIVERSE. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's only true in your own mind!


Well feel free to have them post. Show the silent majority. Did you know that in the US if you don't vote, you don't always get what you like? Yah know if you don't vote, and than the President sucks, well, you can't say "the silent majority didn't want him."


quote:
You actually just feel like lying? I spoke to your corpie. He says he used scripts. Ya know this may surprise you, but Any built in function is swath is a script. So you used scripts, just not as good ones.

quote:
Well, if MA was using scripts I wasn't aware of it, shrug. You know what now I'm getting a little bit angry! I DON'T USE THE BUILT IN SCRIPT FUNCTIONS OF SWATH! As you've pointed out, they aren't very good, and they don't have a single script built into that helper that I can't do with a simple macro. I use Swath because it has a quick macro feature! I've tried the scripts built into swath and they DON'T WORK. In fact, I've posted complaints right here in this forum about that very thing!


So once again simply making broad statements without any knowledge? I asked Madd a simple question and he said he used Swath's built in scripts. Ya know what that tells me, you went off again without info. Now you wonder why people question other information you put forward.


quote:Look, you are seriously lacking in experience, that is clear to me. You don't even understand the ISSUES that are involved when it comes to this debate because you ONLY KNOW ONE FORM OF GAME PLAY!


As I stated before you prove my point. Experience does NOT = Knowledge, and I'll add Experience does NOT = Skill. I have not played the game for near as long as you have obviously, but I have spend hours studying how it works. I am no elite, nor am I that good of a player. But I DO know how the game works. I know how def odds of ships work, and figs vs shields, etc.

quote:
quote:
Having been a Roleplaying for years, i find it humerous that people call TW a RPG. It isn't you aren't play the role of "SGO" the character. You are competiting in a competition. If you have a different definition for RPG as i asked in early post. Please post it.


That's because you've never really PLAYED TRADEWARS! All you've ever played is the stripped down "shoot 'em up" version it has become!

We used to actually talk on FED COMM IN CHARACTER years ago! We named our ships and our planets based on our character!

My first Perma Corp was the NeRdS! I was Ogre, and Raven called himself Louis! We were in TOTAL CHARACTER whenever we opened up Fed Comm!

In the last tournament we played using that theme, Maxzor came in and took out our base. Then he posted a universal announcement that simply said... "NEEEEERDS!"

We had fun in this game. Now, "fun" is defined as looking at the player list on day two and seeing *SD* by the names of everyone who's not in your corp!

It's really quite sad, actually! But, I can't expect you to understand, because you just think this is text only version of the other "internet games" out there where the object of the game is to kill everything and everyone in sight as fast as you possibly can!

I'm not saying this game is PRIMARILY a RPG, but it has PLENTY of elements of RPG. You create a character, you pretend to fly around in space ships, making planets! Go to the LIBRARIUM of ANY STOCK GAME! Read the descriptions! There is PLENTY of fantasy ROLE PLAYING built RIGHT INTO THE DESIGN of the game!


EIS hmm...the Word STRATEGY is in the name. Not EIRPG. I asked JP the same thing, and I'm sure he will respond as he has time. What is your definition of a RPG. The game is NOT an RPG as sited in previous post. What you do with the game, and should you take on a role of a character is your business. But it does not make it a roleplaying game. So I am clear, when this was a 1 person at a time game, you roleplayed? Or during a specific area of TW (not TW as a whole) you did? Well if it was only a part, your argument is invalid.

As I stated I played back in single node dialup. So I did play the way it used to be.

Now I will reiterate the points made previously that you seem to want to overlook.

1.) Other online games are similar, elite vs newbie, elite wins.
2.) There are servers that cater to the type of games you like, so what is the issue?
3.) Tournaments and competitive servers are exactly that. You play as hard as you can.

Now I'll add another. Dedication. Many people win today because of dedication. A corp shows up to a turn game, and 5 people play hard. Than a solo shows up and can't figure out why he gets killed. Or a corp has 2 out of 5 show. Now maybe in a non competitive server that is okay. In a competitive game, it won't fly.

Maybe this is more the point I was trying to get at with JP.

If a game is competitive, it is fine the way it is in general, with some fixes needed.

If you want a rec / non competitive game, you can go to servers that don't have that.

Jhereg

quote:Originally posted by Supreme Galactic Overlord
First, the year long games I played in were MBBS version multi node games with upwards of 10 to 20 people all in the game, with usually 5 people playing at once. The turns were low, usually 500 to 750, that is true. As for no RPG element, evidently you know more about the game than JP, because he told you flatly the game has an RPG element!


As said previously, I questioned this, waiting on a response.

quote:
Slim, do a search on old threads for the word "bot." You will find these types of bots described in detail by those who use them. Many posts were made defending bots saying "they only ensure that if a partner can't use his turns, the turns won't go to waste." Now, how does a tholian refurb or planet evac bot help you make sure a partner's turns don't go to waste?????

Also, Slim, I don't know about Zoc, but TWX allows me to run SEVERAL scripts at once. I can run world trade, and fire up a "photon move" script at the same time. They will run together!

Now, if I can write a script that will warp me to an adjacent sector when a player hits one of my fighters, and fires a photon into that sector, how hard would it be to run that script while I'm running world trade, and keep a photon on me, and put into my world trade script a holo scan command that shuts down the script if it sees offensive figs or mines or debris?

For that matter, if a script can be written that allows me to sit on a planet, waiting for someone to hit a fighter, then warps the planet there, what is stopping me from writing a script that warps me to my home sector when a player starts hitting my fighters, lands me on the planet, and waits for the next fighter hit? Now, I can sit there and run my world trade or world sst, and run the other script at the same time. When someone starts running a lawn mower on my gridded figs, my second script kicks in, warps me home, lands, and waits for the next time the player hits one of my fighters.

These scripts DO exist, I assure you.


SGO, do you have any evidence of these super scripts? Serious evidence? You claim you don't know much about scripts, but you are theorizing alot. You are correct is is possible to write something like this. I could possibly write something that could play your turns. It would probably be the size of TWGS, and about as complex. These theories you have of scripts are humerous. Yes, you can bot someone, you can have them run reports, you can have them colo, buydown,etc. In Theory, I could use a bot to have someone grid very slowly. But it is so unreasonable, and dangerous only a fool would try it. You keep making wild claims of what scripts can do, and people repeatedly tell you the same thing. You don't have evidence, only that you get beaten. That doesn't mean it is a script, it could possibly mean they are better players.

There are advanced scripts which do stuff, but you seem to think they are like some windows app you just plug in and it works. They are reactive macros, nothing more. They can only do what the author could write them to do, and he can't take every situation into account.

It seems that you go on rants about everykind of script.

The end result, the only script that really is harsh against newer players are attack scripts. Well, in general newer servers don't have people who run them, play there, and you have less of a problem.

BTW Still never got a response of were you play. Also your edits you were talking about, could you send me a few servers running them?

Quite a lot to read here I'm going to have to be selective in what I respond to. Sorry.

quote:Having been a Roleplaying for years, i find it humerous that people call TW a RPG. It isn't you aren't play the role of "SGO" the character. You are competiting in a competition. If you have a different definition for RPG as i asked in early post. Please post it.


I think we're getting caught up in a very specific computer game genre designation, RPG, when all I really mean to say is that TW provides plenty of elements that favor role playing for those who enjoy such play. The fact is, people in the past have been attracted to TW for its role playing elements as much as any other. Today, role players need not apply. There are four main classes of gamers, and TW draws predominately from only one, Killers. It used to draw equally from Killers, Explorers, Builders, and Socializers. This is one of the things that makes TW worthy of continued support. As an arcade style shoot-em-up game, it's just not worth my time to continue to develop.

quote:
Buttom line of what I am saying (and I've noticed a lack of SGO response on stuff instead of conceding points) is that there are servers that don't have these problems they advertise to a different group of players. Other servers cater to different groups.


This will continue to be the case. The main difference, I hope, is that it will be more difficult for a player to raid a server and ruin a game.

quote:
if you call a cow a cat, it will still moo.


But in this case, it might have a hankering for cat food The point is, you can't tell players how to play a game. Every decent game provides immersion, which is an important element to role playing. And anytime you combine fantasy play with extended interaction, you're going to have role playing. For some people, that's the fun of it. So yeah, even if it's a cow, what harm is there in letting it think it's a cat? What has made TW interesting as a game has been its lack of definition. Players make of this game what they choose to make of it. It's very close to the ideal of an "open universe game". In recent years, it has become very one-dimensional.

quote:
I didn't think my posts insinuated that SGO had anything to do with what JP is going to do with the game. Although from SGO's posts, I could see where someone could, as he is constantly referring to JP, like he has some inside connection.


The fact is, anyone who chooses to send me an email has an inside connection. I'm very accessible. I tend to avoid the forums because frankly I don't have anything to prove. But if you have questions and input, you can always reach me via email. I'm always more than happy to explain my reasoning behind any change in TW, and to listen to arguments against them.

quote:
EIS hmm...the Word STRATEGY is in the name. Not EIRPG.


I believe that Strategy is at the core of this kind of game, but it really is multi-genre. You seem to think that a strategy game cannot have elements of role playing, and for that matter, that an RPG cannot have elements of strategy. I recall from my D&D days that strategy is a major element. In fact, D&D itself evolved from a strategy game.

I didn't grab the quote, but one other point I'd like to address is the question of my motivations, about this supposed desire to turn TW into a multimillion dollar hit. The reality is, my goals with classic TW are centered on an existing pool of players, not only those in the game today, but those over the history of the game, and my goals are very clearly to keep this game true to its roots, not to make it a break-out hit. If this game appeals to those players who remember "the good old days" when this was the height of gaming, then I've achieved my goal. Right now, this game does not appeal to what I consider to be the core audience.

My work on TW takes two forms, one being the development and maintenance of the classic game, and the other being the development of a future version of the game that will appeal to modern audiences. They're two distinct projects.

I commend you. It is nice to know that you are accessible and are willing to take input from the rank and file. A lot of people wouldn't want to be bothered.

Hey JP, just to clarify. I am not saying you cannot have a social type interaction, and that RPG's cannot have strategy. But I was questioning the classification as a RPG. That was it

Jhereg

Right. And I was just clarifying that I don't classify TW as an RPG. I simply believe that it has RPG elements. And I'd like it to continue having that element if that's possible.

Well, it's probably moot at this point anyway, seeing as how the guy I wanted to reply to got banned, but...

SGO,
I have found myself on the wrong end of many a flame war with the EIS Forum Community and the TWGS.org community. In fact, for some of the very same things you are complaining about. Seriously, go look in the archives at either site, you'll see me complain about scripts, newbie killers, tournaments, etc... Often times I would get so pissed off that I would quit the game for a few months, but like bad chilli, I keep coming back. (also helps when I remember to take my meds. heh)

So, speaking as someone who knows the game really, really well, and has played since '88 and more or less continually for the last 11 years, can write script with the best of them, AND has managed to piss off just about everyone at one point or another, do you want to know what you are doing wrong?

You are trying to dictate to people how to play the game.

quote:Evidently you clearly do NOT have a clue what twars is about!
quote:That's NOT and I repeat NOT NOT NOT the object of Twars!
quote:You will NEVER understand the point that I am making, because I REMEMBER the game before the current game tactics RUINED IT!

quote:That's because you've never really PLAYED TRADEWARS! All you've ever played is the stripped down "shoot 'em up" version it has become!


There IS NO RIGHT or WRONG way to play TW. If you want to play it a certain way (like old school with no scripting), then YOU should take the initiative and recruit some like-minded people and get one of the many sysops out there to host a CLOSED game for you to play in. Almost every sysop I know would gladly do this for you. (if nothing else, to get some more traffic on their servers)

The elites that want to play hardcore-full-on-script-wars (tm) do this all the time. They are called Tournaments. And they spend a lot of time and bandwidth promoting them.

I have heard you complain, but I havn't seen you do anything to change the situation.

There is enough room in TW for everyone to play how they want too. That is one of the best things about TW.

Enough already sheesh

Nice post Traitor. I have to agree completely. (Well maybe not with your opinions on some things, but definitely with the "do something about it")

Jhereg

quote:Originally posted by John Pritchett (EIS)

Right. And I was just clarifying that I don't classify TW as an RPG. I simply believe that it has RPG elements. And I'd like it to continue having that element if that's possible.


As one on the relatively silent sysop's out there, I'll say a few things for my players, and try to duck being flamed [;)].

I run a small, closed server. My players are almost all RGP players, and most of my players are the builder type. I declare winners based on total assets and alien kills, more often than not. An uber-competitive, super-elite player, would ruin the fun for my players faster than I care to think about. In most of the games I hear about in these forums, my players would be slaughtered in seconds, we all know this. My players seem to have fun in spite of that.

Now I admit, I don't have many players, about 5-10 in any one game. I know all my players face-to-face, and it's always been a group decision as to what style of game is played. We would all like to see the role-playing aspect of the game enhanced, and some set victory conditions would be very nice.

So, JP in the big-book-of-playing-Trade Wars-the-Right-Way, are my players and I heretics? Should we be burned at the stake? (hiding the charcoal[:)]) Or are we in that "silent" group of players that has been mentioned before?

~Prinz of Darkness

Prinz,

For the record you are completely normal people. You play TW on a server in the way you want too. Which has been my point all along. You guys are happy, people play the way you want too. Your server is what they want, so does something need to be changed to resolve that?